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nytemist

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before getting married, how long did your ''he''s driving me mental'' stage last? Other friends of mine that have been married at least a few years tell me that there will be moments in the first six months to a year that you might want to strangle each other. But I''m not sure if we have been ''average''.

Yesterday we had yet another argument because I said what was on my mind about his driving. Over the weekend, it happened becasue I pointed out to him why cleaning is important and that it seems to only get done when I do it. It seems like voicing my opinion causes tension. I don''t know if it me or he just doesn''t like hearing something that he knows is right.

This has happening far too much in the past couple of months. A few weeks ago, he fessed up that he thought I was too demanding, after asking him once again to make an effort to keep things organized. Personally I don''t think asking for a clean, decent-looking place to live is too much to ask. It''s a small place and especially since he''s got cats.

Is it me?
 

belle

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have his habits changed since you got married? did he keep his bachelor pad tidy? were his things organized before you moved in together?
 

TravelingGal

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Hey there nytemist!

Sorry you are going through this. From what I remember, your man was not particularly tidy before you got married. Furthermore, I believe you moved into his place?

Probably in his mind it''s still "his" place and he lived there *just fine* until you moved in. I can understand how frustrating a messy person can be. It can be tough because any suggestion to clean or change ways automatically becomes nagging. And I think men have two majors fears about marriage...the detoriation of nookie and the metamorphosis of their wife turning into a nag. Any hints of either (whether just in their head or not) makes them think, a ha! I was right, and I''m not happy about this situation!

It took me awhile time when we first started to live together to figure out the cleaning thing. The best advice I can give you is that it isn''t 50/50. Even if it''s 90/10, I tried to appreciate that the 10% is more than what he would want to do (thank goodness it wasn''t that one sided!) It''s like training a dog. Little steps. When TGuy cleans up just a little, I praise him. I find that it leads to him helping out more.

So now we''re to the point where TGuy puts away the dishes every morning (he knows I hate that). He vacuums when he can and takes out the trash. I clean bathrooms, do dishes every night, maintain the kitchen, and dust. Is it quite fair? No. But it works for us.

Listen to what you say to him carefully. Have you been mostly voicing dissatisfaction about something? Try to find things about him that has made you happy, no matter how small and compliment him on it. No one likes to be told what they are doing wrong all the time. To you, you are simply voicing your opinion. To him, he is hearing why he is inadequate.
 

sumbride

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Date: 6/14/2007 11:26:40 AM
Author:nytemist
especially since he''s got cats.

Is it me?

You''re married now... they''re your cats too! For better or worse.

Are you nagging him? Focus on the positive... and maybe plan to have people over... that always gets our house clean! We try to entertain about once a month so we''re forced to clean because really, we''re both slobs. He''s particular about some things that I do that drive him crazy, but he doesn''t nag me about it. I leave glasses on the coffee table CONSTANTLY. I always have. He picks them up and takes them to the kitchen because for him (thankfully) it''s not worth arguing about.

You''re never going to make things as important to him as they are to you, but you can figure out how to live together... Pick your battles. And give it time. It does take a while to adjust, especially since you both lived on your own for so long beforehand.

Is there anything else going on? Are you depressed or stressed or anxious about something else that is making these little things much bigger to you? Do you need to plan something to look forward to so you have something else to focus on?
 

nytemist

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No, things were not tidy and organized before I moved in. I knew that would be an uphill battle, but not like this. Last summer when I started packing, I did ask him nicely if he could please begin organizing his stuff and cleaning up so that my stuff would have somewhere to go. He said no problem. I didn''t harp on it and it took all my strength not to since a week before the wedding, he still had''t gotten rid of boxes in the living room or piles of laundry blocking the closet. Long story short, I still have a lot of things at my parent''s house.

I''m trying desperately not to be a nag. That''s what my mom used to do and I certainly don''t want to be her. But he realizes that things are a mess. He will see dishes he has used in the sink for three days, see crumbs from whatever he''s made on the counter and say I know it needs to be cleaned, but doesn''t do it. Last Sunday I got tired of the bathroom and started cleaning it. He asks me what was wrong and I told him I''m pretty tired of the same thing happening... nothing seems to get clean unless I do it. I didn''t know that marrying you made me automatic housekeeper.

About the driving: it''sbeen established that we have comepletely different driving styles. Yesterday he let a bunch of people cut him off and someone else take a parking space from him, since he acted like he was too afraid to back up and park where he wanted to. I made the comment indirectly at the other driver and DH flipped out on me. Now, he KNOWS there is nothing wallflower about me and will say what I want sometimes. He snaps at me if that was necessary and I said to me yeah. I asked why he acted like he was afraid to do things sometimes.

When things are going well, I do compliment and encourage. But then it doens''t continue. If you know there is an issue that upsets the other person, you should care enough to work on not repeating it, right? That''s what I do. It doesn''t seem to happen in return. I''m truly not this demanding, diva b**ch either. I do feel like, since I did move into his place, that it is still ''his'' place, along with his cats, and I''m just this random person in the apartment.
 

belle

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it shouldn''t be an ''uphill battle''. you married a man that isn''t tidy and organized. marriage doesn''t make him automatically conform to your view of how things *should be* (in your mind). he''s always left dishes in the sink and crumbs on the counter, why would (should) that change now? i''m not saying it''s right, i just think your views are unrealistic. as tg mentioned, a little praise goes a long way. instead of constantly nagging him about what you think he should do, try praising the good things that he does do. baby steps! if the dishes in the sink are bothering you that much, then you should just pick them up! i''m pretty sure that he isn''t doing these annoying things just to spite you. they obviously really don''t bother him at all and you can''t change a lifetime of habits overnight (maybe not even ever!) and no, i don''t think someone should automatically change their ways because it upsets someone else. that is a self centered expectation that will lead to extreme dissapointment.

btw...maybe you should drive (?)
 

TravelingGal

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Have you thought about counseling?

As for the driving style thing....it's exactly that - you two have different STYLES. He's just not as aggressive as you and there is nothing wrong with that IMO. Just let the guy drive, as long as he isn't being unsafe. He gets you to point B, right?

ETA, asking a guy if he's afraid to do things is kind of emasculating.
 

TravelingGal

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Date: 6/14/2007 12:55:12 PM
Author: belle
it shouldn''t be an ''uphill battle''. you married a man that isn''t tidy and organized. marriage doesn''t make him automatically conform to your view of how things *should be* (in your mind). he''s always left dishes in the sink and crumbs on the counter, why would (should) that change now? i''m not saying it''s right, i just think your views are unrealistic. as tg mentioned, a little praise goes a long way. instead of constantly nagging him about what you think he should do, try praising the good things that he does do. baby steps! if the dishes in the sink are bothering you that much, then you should just pick them up! i''m pretty sure that he isn''t doing these annoying things just to spite you. they obviously really don''t bother him at all and you can''t change a lifetime of habits overnight (maybe not even ever!) and no, i don''t think someone should automatically change their ways because it upsets someone else. that is a self centered expectation that will lead to extreme dissapointment.

btw...maybe you should drive (?)
My boss (who I am good friends with now) told me she went into counseling within the first year or two of living together. In their case, she was the messy one. The thing that really helped them both? Her hubby was made to realize that when she forgot to pick up this or clean that, it wasn''t PERSONAL. It''s wasn''t to drive him purposefully crazy. That really helped take the emotions out of it.
 

nytemist

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I guess the point I''m making is if you realize that you are making a mess and don''t clean it, someone else may find that annoying. Yes I knew how has was and I guess it''s my fault and I just have to get over it. He did say he would make an effort though and that went out the window. Basic cleanliness is important to me. He would never go to counseling, he doesn''t think he needs it.
 

Mara

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sorry to hear you guys are having such growing pains with the living together thing....i have to say though, why are you surprised that it's been so difficult thus far? i remember your posts about how he was messy before, didn't want to make space for you in his house, how unhappy you were about the whole living together situation and feeling not welcomed...so really did you think all of that would just poof...just magically change after marriage?

living together can be really hard...you can love each other and just not really be able to live together harmoniously all that easily, BUT i do think a lot of it has to do with people's WILLINGNESS to compromise, change, modify, whatever....however you want to term it. you both have to want to do that and realize that your 'before' way isn't the right way or wrong way, it just is. you two have to figure out what is important to each of you and then think about whether or not you can modify your behaviors to fit the other person's requirements.

greg and i lived together for a year before marriage but after marriage we found that we still had a lot of work to do. most of that is because before we got married, we lived together in my place. he saw it as MY place and didnt feel like he had the right to speak up and ask me to make changes to how i did things in MY place even though he lived there. but once we bought a house and got married, all bets were off, it was his place too and he had definite ideas on how things should be done and not done. i wish he had been up front about this stuff before, when we were in my old place, but i can see what he was thinking. it took us about a year of living in the new house together to really work out all the kinks and compromise what we could and realize that abcdef might never change and to be okay with that. now we are definitely more of a team than ever before and we know each others strengths and weaknesses and sure sometimes things annoy us about the other's habits but for the most part we can respect the differences between us.

i am a firm believer that you can work anything out if you are determined enough and have enough love and respect between you, but the problem is if one person does not want to change and the other is pushing hard for it. i would definitely agree you guys should seek some counseling because if your methods of communicating together are just getting you two into fights, nothing is actually being resolved. i would also stop and think about what is reasonable to ask from him and what might just be your preferred way vs what his preferred way is. there needs to be compromise, but there shouldn't be too much of 'change' in my opinion because i think that it's tough for people to make huge modifications to who they are to please another person. good luck.

ETA i totally agree with the whole realizing it's not personal thing. greg used to get upset thinking that i was leaving this dish or tissue around for him to pick up after me. i was like why would i do that? and why would i purposefully try to annoy you? i love you and don't want to fight with you. it took him most of that first year to realize that as well, and to realize that sometimes i am just a spacey dingbat who walks awway from something mid-stream and forgets to clean up or whatever. now he freely admits that he thought that but now realizes that is not the case. it's baffling to me why he would ever think that, but okay. hahaa. bottom line is that you can't EXPECT someone else to think the way you do. and again, if you knew he was like this, it shouldn't be surprising to you that nothing has changed. i am not sure how you guys can really work on this if he won't admit there is an issue as well.
 

TravelingGal

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Date: 6/14/2007 1:06:19 PM
Author: nytemist
I guess the point I''m making is if you realize that you are making a mess and don''t clean it, someone else may find that annoying. Yes I knew how has was and I guess it''s my fault and I just have to get over it. He did say he would make an effort though and that went out the window. Basic cleanliness is important to me. He would never go to counseling, he doesn''t think he needs it.
LOL, you did marry a GUY right? That''s way too complex a thought process for them.
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It actually would go something like this...

"Mess?"
 

Mara

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the other thing i wanted to say is that with time i HAVE changed some of my habits, and he has changed some of his so that we can be more accommodating to each other. once you realize just how irritating XYZ might be to your loved one, you are like wow okay. but some stuff is harder to change if it''s super ingrained in you. so while some stuff may change over time, some won''t and you have to be okay with that.
 

decodelighted

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Sounds like you are both STUBBORN. BTW ... even if he thinks he doesn''t "need" counseling ... there''s nothing stopping YOU from seeking it out for YOURSELF. Some conflicts only take one side adjusting their perspective, adjusting their EXPECTATIONS, changing their techniques. It''s possible you''d learn more about YOUR part in the relationship tension and be able to make a huge difference in your own experience & happiness AS WELL AS "the situation".

Life = not fair. You''re not gonna will or cajole or shame him into your way of thinking/living/being. No matter how much you think you''re entitled to or how "right" you believe you are.

Look inward.
 

nytemist

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Like I said, I guess it''s just me. Still I can''t help but feel kind of lied to if he told me that more effort would be made. No I didn''t think anything would magiaclly chnge because we got married, I''m not that naive.

I wanted other''s opinion to see if this is just not that important or would grow into something worse. Thanks for the replies.
 

TravelingGal

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Date: 6/14/2007 1:16:05 PM
Author: nytemist

I wanted other''s opinion to see if this is just not that important or would grow into something worse. Thanks for the replies.
That''s hard to say because we don''t really know you guys and every couple is difference. I do think it will get worse for you if, as Deco says, you don''t look inward.

You truly can only control yourself and what you feel. I always thought I was a pretty easy going person, but about a year ago I had a bit of a epiphany. TGuy and I got into a massive fight...over nothing. It was so bad, I did what I thought I would never do...

A) take my engagement ring off and
B) throw it out the window of a moving car.
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(are you pricescopers having a heart attack yet?)

Fortunately TGuy wasn''t around to witness the hurling of the e-ring.

I was distraught for about a week that I would do such a thing (another anomaly for me, as I never stay upset for long). Instead of blaming him for making me so BLOODY mad, I thought, wow...if I could have controlled this or that, it wouldn''t have gotten that far. I was so sad and shocked that I was capable of such a thing...truly before meeting my other half, I was a person who did not feel anger or frustration on any level beyond the surface!

I really felt like TGuy was the insensitive one up until that point, but after that, I knew that a lot of the problem really did lay with me and that I needed to figure out how to handle the small annoyances before they became avalanches. Didn''t happen overnight, but it took a lot of self reflection (which fortunately I''m decent at) and a LOT of counting to 10...

Oh, and I can definitely vouch for Jeff Cooper settings being DURABLE.
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Mara

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honestly nyt i think it could easily grow into something worse.

it's not about whether or not it's just you or it's him. you are in this TOGETHER. if you guys are arguing all the time, what is fun about that? you have to both find a way to co-exist in the household together or the marriage will flat out not work over time. you will continue to be bitter about not speaking up OR speaking up and fighting about it, and he will continue to think you are demanding and a nag or whatever. and nothing will most likely actually CHANGE and it will not be happy times for you two.

i really suggest you do look into counseling, let me ask you something, if you told him hey this is not working, we need help or our marriage may not make it, would he be more open minded then to going? because that may be where you guys are headed if you cannot work out the kinks and honestly i see you wanting things and him not wanting to give you what you want, and without modifications, that will be hard to sustain long term.
 

sumbride

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It could very well grow into something worse if you don''t find a way to handle it. If resentment builds up, if you feel like he lied to you... that will get worse, because honestly, it''s best to treat him like he WON''T change. He might, but he probably won''t. And if he does, it will be slow.

I think we talked about this in the "honey-do list" thread... I can''t remember who that was for... but men don''t always look at a problem and automatically break it up into tasks to be completed. i.e. he may very well see the dishes in the sink, but he may not think "ok, to remedy this I must first empty the dishwasher, then reload, then add soap, then press go." they may instead say ''hmmm... there are dishes in the sink." or "there are dishes in the sink? really?" or "we have a sink?" seriously, men and women usually think about things differently!!!

My FI has what he calls "mental paralysis" when faced with a task. We''ve both found it helpful for me to break it down for him, and help him prioritize... but I only do it if he tells me he''s having trouble with something. He says "argh... the den is a mess!" I say "how about first you put the suitcases away, and then I''ll fold the laundry while you get the vacuum." He just needs a little direction which doesn''t necessarily equal nagging. It''s all in your tone sometimes.
 

rainbowtrout

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So, I'm the rare messy girl, not guy--can kind of offer a look from the "other side" :

Here's what I have realised:

It isn't about who is "right" about what the correct level of clean is. Seriously. It's your PREFERENCE that it be that clean. He wouldn't clean it if you weren't there---it isn't like he's taking advantage of you to do all the cleaning--he *wouldn't be doing it at all* if you weren't. See the difference?

The way to get this to change, IMO, is to just stop phrasing it like, "hey, this is wrong because/this is dirty because/it is better like this"

Try: "it would make me really, really happy if you would do this for me. I know we have different ideas about what should be done, but if you could help me out a little, it would be great."

Example: my mother HATES dirty dishes in the sink. As in, ever. I do them muuuuch less frequently than she would like. But because it makes her happy, when we're staying together I try to get them all done by nighttime because she likes it. But it's a nice thing I'm doing--if it is bothering her a ton, she just does it herself, with the understanding that she's doing it for *herself,* not as a guilt trip "you didn't do X so I have to wahhhh!"

Obviously long-term things come to a sort of compromise, with different people having different jobs. But an important step is realising that it's usually NOT about who is "right." I, like your hubby, would hate having "what I know is right" pointed out to me as well...

With FI and the dishes, I will say "FI, the dishes have gotten to the point where they are bugging me. Can you do them?" Dishes are his job, so he gets up and does them. But I don't say: these are disgusting why didn't you do them earlier. He hates it when I leave crap on the bed, same thing reversed.
 

sumbride

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Date: 6/14/2007 2:35:08 PM
Author: rainbowtrout

Example: my mother HATES dirty dishes in the sink. As in, ever. I do them muuuuch less frequently than she would like. But because it makes her happy, when we''re living together I try to get them all done by nighttime because she likes it. But it''s a nice thing I''m doing--if it is bothering her a ton, she just does it herself, with the understanding that she''s doing it for *herself,* not as a guilt trip ''you didn''t do X so I have to wahhhh!''
This is me too... I''ll do the dishes... when I need to use the sink, or when I run out of dishes... but not just because they are in the sink! This is why M does the dishes. He hates dirty dishes, so he does the dishes for him. Not because I don''t do them, but because he wants them done. If he waited long enough, I would do them. But he can''t stand to wait that long, so he does them.
 

ljmorgan

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Date: 6/14/2007 11:26:40 AM
Author:nytemist



Yesterday we had yet another argument because I said what was on my mind about his driving. Over the weekend, it happened becasue I pointed out to him why cleaning is important and that it seems to only get done when I do it. It seems like voicing my opinion causes tension. I don''t know if it me or he just doesn''t like hearing something that he knows is right.

My husband and I went through the same thing at first, and really it was me. By "expressing your opinion" about his driving, you are essentially calling him a wimp as he sees it... pointing out he lets people take his spots, etc. You have to really think hard and decide if it means that much to you -- if somehow you absolutely cannot allow him to let people "get away with that." I think it''s one of those things that you should let slide, he''s fine with his driving, and it''s not hurting you.

The cleaning is tougher... essentially the classic battle between husband and wife. And it''s very true, usually the wife does far more than her fair share of the cleaning. My only suggestion would be to have a nice, positive conversation about it, instead of being passive aggressive by saying "I do everything here" or beginning to clean and then grumbling while you''re doing it.
 

nytemist

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This is what happens after I''ve already asked him to do something- this is why I''m so annoyed. "Could you please vacuum after I sweep the kitchen? There''s a lot of litter tracked on the carpet." The reply is "sure". But then it doesn''t happen.

I never just sit there and immediately get mad at him. It''s after I''ve asked if he could help me out and then rarely gets around to it. I totally agree that this should be a partnership issue, but so far it hasn''t been. It after whatever room is clean that he tell me "well I was eventually going to do it."

Sometimes his driving does make me nervous. He gets drowsy really quickly, so I always drive at night. Maybe we can try to discuss this again without him just mumbling ''ok''.
 

Mara

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nytemist, have you ever let him 'eventually' clean up whatever he said he would? or do you get upset that it's not happening within your mental timeframe and do it and then get mad at him that you HAD to do it because he didn't?

this is kind of like what was happening to us. greg would say 'i'd really like it if you put the plate in the sink'. i said 'okay'. but then if i didn't put the plate in the sink on HIS timeline...aka how long he could stand the plate sitting there before he wanted to put it in the sink...then he would put it in the sink and i'd get the evil eye for the next 10 minutes. when i was thinking okay i was going to do it, AFTER this movie was over, or whatever. but okay if you want to do it, fine.
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in any case, all of this may sound so petty in general, it does to me even when we were experiencing it...but over time that kind of stuff can really work the nerve longterm and cause all sorts of bitterness if it isn't addressed!! we somehow found a way to make it work and i think you can too, but i guess part of it is like what i told greg about his 'particularness' about things. i told him 'this is all about YOU..what you want, what you want me to do...you want it your way...i am a different person from you and that is why you love me'. i also reminded him that i have been the way i have been for MY WHOLE LIFE! and that he knew that when he married me. so again, the whole 'did you magically think it would change' comes into play, i asked him that too. i don't think i entered into the whole situation with so many other expectations on how things would change...i figure you can't really change people without a ton of angst so why try?

i told him that really he just needed to chill out and relax about certain things. that does not translate to 'i won't try to compromise' but rather, just chill out. he has done a GREAT job of that for the most part and i have done a GREAT job of trying to be better about the top 3-4 things that i know just drive him nuts. compromise can be a beautiful thing. we have also found 'workarounds' for things that we know are sore spots...aka when we travel, he feels like i end up taking over his suitcase as well as mine but i start out with 'oh can you just put this one thing in thee suitcase'....so the last time we traveled, we ended up taking more luggage than usual but it was all SEPARATE. it made him feel better to know that i wasn't encroaching on his luggage territory and he didn't mind lugging around an extra bag. it was kind of funny but hey it worked and he was happy. so i was happy too.

lol it's so funny but don't all these marriage stories just make you guys laugh sometimes? when i think about the difficult feat of meshing of two personalities, it's amazing that couples can be married for 50/60/75 years!!!! i aspire to be that easygoing. hehee. so far so good...hehee, keeping fingers crossed.
 

glitterkitty

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Can I offer an opinion as someone who has just celebrated our 11th anniversary and 13 years living together.

It IS hard living with another person whose habits differ greatly from yours, and whose standards are maybe not up to your own high ones - however, marriage is like life and the biggest word you need is COMPROMISE.

I used to despair with DH - his mother had done everything for him, even down to picking his dirty clothes off the floor where he dropped them
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. He had never lived away from home, whereas I had been on my own from 18 years old. I could turn my hand to anything practical in the home - he had no skills whatsoever. He thought the bathroom fairy came every night and magically cleaned the bathroom along with her mate the kitchen elf and the vacuum goblin. Did my head in totally
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So i stopped doing stuff. We had a standoff over a vase of dead flowers
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He pointed out to me that the flowers were dead and needed throwing out. "yes darling, you''re right" i said....and waited for him to do it. Three months later (I kid you not), they were still there. It never occured to him to do it. So I thought, do I want to live like this, in a state of constant tension and resentment over silly, insignificant things that are not that important in the scheme of things - or do I want to enjoy spending time with DH?

Fast forward a few months, I do most of the household stuff - cleaning, decorating and gardening etc and find that we have a harmonious happy house. Fast forward another few months, and Dh starts showing an interest in the house, starts cleaning (without pointing it out for approval when I get home), and now we share the household tasks - well, sort of!

The point of this long ramble is to get you to ask yourself if its worth making yourself unhappy over things you can actively change or if these issues you''ve mentioned are part of a deeper problem that needs outside help. Good luck
 

Skippy123

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Date: 6/14/2007 11:36:03 AM
Author: belle
have his habits changed since you got married? did he keep his bachelor pad tidy? were his things organized before you moved in together?

I agree w/belle. I trained my hubby a little but he is still the same. He drives me nuts because he doesn't put dirty dishes in the dishwasher. I drive HIM NUTS for other things. Hang in there. . . we ALL go through it.
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ETA: I just read about driving. Let him be. You can't change his driving and he shouldn't change yours. When you drive then you can do what you want and when he drives he should do what he wants as long as it is safe.

Counseling does help. We did it once for cleaning issues; it helped a little. Can you hire someone to help clean? We have cleaning days where we both clean. Maybe make a cleaning date. Best wishes.
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p.s. I think Glitterygirl made some really GOOD points! I have been married 7 years and agree w/a lot of what she says.
 

phoenixgirl

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3,376
I recommend watching the movie The Story of Us. Not that watching a movie can replace counseling or anything, but it's all about those little things that drive you crazy about each other.

I've definitely experienced some of that frustration. It's like my husband simply must pile things that should be sorted (and half of it thrown away). After we moved this February I kept finding old bills that he had stashed the first time he moved . . . before we were married in 2004. I've got most of the house under control now, but because he doesn't have a real nightstand, he just piles things on top of his dresser. I guess that one messy dresser in a whole house isn't a big dig, but one night just seeing it made my blood pressure rise. OK, deep breaths. I think I exclaimed, "You dresser is driving me crazy! Why must you make your little piles of crap??!?!" sort of joking but sort of not.

Something that really helped me was to hire a cleaning serve to come every two weeks. I would get really resentful of how much I had to clean when I saw his messes -- not that his making piles of crap really added that much to my cleaning since I would obviously make him put that stuff away so that I could clean -- but I would just irrationally connect the two in mind. "I clean these floors and this toilet and these counters and you can't find a box to store your receipts in?!?!" But now that the service does the major stuff I find a little mess a lot less frustrating. That's something to consider. You're not just paying for the cleaning service -- you're paying for peace of mind, less stress in your marriage, and more free time for yourself. Of course, I realize not everyone can afford to do this.

Partly, though, I think this is just a personality thing. It doesn't have to be woman who is the neat freak. Yesterday a coworker was telling us how her husband meticulously folds their laundry and does all the cleaning because he doesn't like how she does it. And that's how it works -- opposites attract and all that. The important thing is to decide what you can and can't live with and express that calmly, coming up with a compromise that works for both of you. But fundamentally, you can't change your husband into someone who is bothered by dirty dishes lying around or clothes on the floor because he isn't wired that way.

Do you feel that your husband isn't "in charge" of enough things? OK, so he's not a cleaner, but maybe he can cook half the time? We've got it worked out as follows:

He does about 75% of the cooking (and all of the cooking for guests).
We both do the dishes, and whoever didn't cooked usually offers.
He does all of the gardening and house maintenance and painting.
He makes all the business calls because I usually end up overreacting and don't like talking to strangers on the phone.
I do all of the laundry and the upkeep cleaning.
I pay all of the bills and do all of the shopping.

So we've figured out who's best at doing each task (or maybe whoever minds it the least), and I feel the split is pretty even. I think it's important to feel that way, so when you are doing your part by cleaning, you're not feeling like you have to do everything. And there were definitely times in the past when I felt like I was doing everything, but we were able to consciously make some changes and sort of fall into other changes. I originally asked him to cook two nights a week, but he's better at it than I am so he usually offers. He'll just wake up and decide to make pancakes or muffins, whereas I won't cook unless it's my only means to a meal.

If it were I, I would probably end up saying something like, "I just can't live like this doing all of the cleaning by myself. If you can't help me do it, then I need to hire somebody to help us." (The whole "if you can't help me" part is just make it logical to him to spend money on it, not to convince him to help -- whenever my husband would try to help me clean he'd just put things away, so that was no help anyway. A few times he proudly exclaimed, "Look! I cleaned!" when no cleaning supplies were used whatsover. "No, honey, you put things away. That's not cleaning.").
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,225
I was the honeydo list person!

We've been living together now for 8 freaking years... and I posted that about 4 months ago. Things change and you always have to make adjustements and compromises. That's normal. What is worrisome is a breakdown in communication. Therapy, even one sided is good. At that time I used this place to smack me into line-- this was my therapy. A couple of times we have sought out 'real' therapy-- either couples or single. Or more, normally, one of us takes the lead and FORCES a communication breakthrough. A real honest, not passive agreesive, no lying or making promises we wont' keep airing out.

You said that when he caught you cleaning you said something about what does it look like? THEN went on to say, the married a housekeeper comment. That's passive aggressive, it's not constructive and it's what turns the situation into one where he will shut you off. THAT'S nagging. Instead, maybe you should have just said something like, "The bathroom was dirty, and I'm cleaning it. Maybe we need to set up a schedule and take turns."

You guys BOTH have to make compromises. But the only way you will get to that point, is if you learn to communicate effectively. Build each other's trust (no passive agreesive comments and no nagging) and pratice forgiveness and patience.

You guys need to learn to be a couple, not just individuals sharing the same space... and it's a process with many growing pains.

And they really are your cats too now.


Oh... and we've hired a housekeeper now. It's only every three weeks. But it's SO great in terms of relieving stress in our relationship.
Good luck hon!
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cutes814

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jun 28, 2005
Messages
1,803
it is hard, esp since you didn''t live together before the wedding.

re the driving thing, you really just have to let that one go. i used to do it to sam all the time and he would to me as well. it drove us both crazy! nowadays, i hardly ever say anything about his driving, but sometimes he still says things about mine, and when he does, all i say is, "honey, please don''t be a backseat driver. thanks." and then he knows to let it go. sometimes they just need a reminder too ya know?

if his driving makes you nervous or you really can''t take it, then just drive yourself. no biggie.

as for the cleaning, that one is much tougher. when sam and i moved in together, i knew it was going to be tough because his mom spoils all her children. they won''t even rinse their glass after drinking a cup of water! she did everything for them! from cleaning their room to doing their laundry, cooking their food, just everything!

i told sam that i can''t be like his mom and asked if it would be alright. he understood. we both had full time jobs and i was working throughout our entire pregnancy until one week before the due date. i made it very clear to ask him to help out with whatever it is that i''m cleaning. like if i''m doing laundry and there''s a whole sink of dirty dishes, i would ask him to do the dishes. he''ll be watching tv, so he always says, "ok." i know that "ok" means later, but i''m the type that would like to know when, so i ask him. he says after the show is over. ok, that''s no problem, so i stop my cleaning and sit down and watch the show with him. after the show is over, we clean together.

that''s the way we''ve been doing it. we always clean together. when we clean together, it makes us feel like we''re both participating equally, which is the way it should be. granted i have more chores than him, but hey, we''ll work on that later.
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i noticed your dh does the same, say okay and not do it within your expected timeframe. try letting him do it within his timeframe. of course that doesn''t mean him saying yes and then waiting 2 weeks to put the dish away or something. better yet, just ask him when he''ll do it.

try not to get too emotional. what they say is true, it is not personal at all, so don''t take it that way. i know it''s hard, but keep at it. you married him because you guys love each other, don''t let the little (and it really is little) everyday things get in between what''s most important. good luck!
 

aljdewey

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 25, 2002
Messages
9,170
From what I recall when you were waiting to get engaged, communication skills have been a consistent struggle for you both. From what you''ve noted here, I''d guess that continues to be at the root of the issues.

In order for this to get better and really bloom into a partnership, you both have to really acknowledge that you have differing communications styles and personalities. You are a lion; you''re direct, no punches pulled, say-what-you-really-think. Sometimes that style can be beneficial; other times, it can be interpreted as abrasive and/or confrontational. He is a turtle; from what you''ve described over your time on PS, he isn''t really the confrontational type. He''d prefer to just put his head into his shell until the storm blows over.

You both need to come to terms with who the other is and how to communicate with each other.

Beyond that, here are a few things I see that might help.

**There is not a ''right'' way or a ''wrong'' way. Rather, there''s ''your'' way and there''s ''his'' way. Positioning your way as being the ''right'' way won''t motivate him to do it your way. Instead, it will make him dig his heels in to resist being told he is ''wrong''.

**I''ve found it helpful to be VERY SPECIFIC in my requests. If I ask my husband to ''please help clean the kitchen'', I''m not likely to be happy with the result. "Clean" means something different to me than it does to him. However, if I ask him to unload the dishwasher and empty the trash, he''s happy to do that and I''m happy with the result.

**I had to get over the whole "I shouldn''t have to ask you to help" thing. It took me a while, but I realized one day that he DOESN''T see the same things I see. I see the empty plastic soda bottle on the counter, and to ME, it looks huge and unmissable. Meanwhile, he doesn''t even see it. If I say "hey, why is the bottle on the counter?", *then* of course, he sees it. BUT, if he were to walk into the kitchen alone, it wouldn''t even REGISTER to him that there''s an empty soda bottle on the counter....because it doesn''t bother him, so it doesn''t stick out to him. It bothers the crap out of me. Hard to believe, I know, but trust me when I say that they don''t see what we see.

**The fact that he hasn''t made a 180 change doesn''t mean he''s not ''making an effort'' or lying to you. It could be that he IS trying more, but his increased effort still hasn''t resulted in him doing everything you''d like.

**If you ask him vacuum after you sweep the kitchen and he says ''sure'', then when you''re done, say ''hey, I''m done with kitchen, it''s ready to be vacuumed.'' Reminders may seem stupid to you, but they are much easier then steaming and getting upset because it''s not getting done.

**It will never be equal, so accepting that now will make you happier. That doesn''t mean you should do it all, but keeping score will ultimately break down a relationship.

**You said "if you know something bothers the other, you should care enough to not repeating it. that''s what I do." BUT he''s not you.....and you''re not him. The fact that you do something and he married you doesn''t make him automatically like you. The fact that he doesn''t do as you do doesn''t mean he doesn''t care. It means he''s not wired to be you.

Marriage and cohabitation is hard work, and it takes a TON of compromise to make it harmonious. But it can be immensely rewarding. You can''t have it all, so now''s the time to figure out what you''re gonna let slide and what''s critically important to make a stand on. For me, it''s just not worth fighting and getting pissy over a soda bottle. If I see it, I throw it away.

I''ve found that since I''ve relaxed a bit, he''s stepped up his effort, too. No one wants to try to please someone who is never satisfied; it''s a fruitless effort. Pick your battles, and you''ll find them more impactful.
 

aljdewey

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 25, 2002
Messages
9,170
About the driving: it''sbeen established that we have comepletely different driving styles. Yesterday he let a bunch of people cut him off and someone else take a parking space from him, since he acted like he was too afraid to back up and park where he wanted to. I made the comment indirectly at the other driver and DH flipped out on me. Now, he KNOWS there is nothing wallflower about me and will say what I want sometimes. He snaps at me if that was necessary and I said to me yeah. I asked why he acted like he was afraid to do things sometimes.
This is a great example of picking your battles.

You both know that you have completely different driving styles, and that''s not likely to change. So, why does it matter if he let a bunch of people cut him off? If it doesn''t bother him, why does it bother you? While it might not be how you''d handle it, who cares? This is what I mean by picking your battles.....this one is so minor. It''s not as though the house is messy or you''re tripping over his shoes and breaking your arm. There''s no harm to you in this....other than irritation that he''s letting someone else treat him in a way you wouldn''t like yourself.

Let it go. If it doesn''t bother him, so be it. As long as he finds *a* space to park, and you both arrive at destination, what''s the big deal?

Hubby and I have similar patterns to yours......he''s more passive, I''m more likely to....uh, express my irritation?
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Even if I''m the one driving, Rich gets upset with me for doing it. One night, I blew up at him and said "what''s your problem? I''m the one driving, and I''m the one making the stink." I felt, hey, I should be able to express my opinion. He pointed out something I hadn''t considered. He said "if someone decides to take issue with you or get pissed, who do you think that person is going to approach? It will be ME....because I''m in the car and I''m the one they''ll want to fight with. And, I just don''t think it''s worth it. I don''t want to see either one of us in harm''s way."

He''s right....it is HE who would be challenged/confronted. I had never thought of it that way. From that, I also realized how it''s possible to miss something that''s SO evident to the other person. It was a no-brainer for Rich to see what could evolve, but I hadn''t thought of it that way. I imagine that''s how he feels when it seems unmistakably clear to me that cleaning the kitchen means wiping down the counter, and it doesn''t even cross his mind.

Men and women think VERY differently. The fun in marriage is finding your happy medium together.
 

surfgirl

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Apr 5, 2007
Messages
4,438
It sounds like you two could use some serious couples counseling. And to be honest, I''m always uncomfortable when someone declares that they "dont need" counseling. You both need to come to a resolution on how to live together harmoniously, as well as how to communicate better. We''ve gone to a terrific counselor for like 3-4 years. We dont go right now but she''s been a huge help and even though my FI started going "for me", he realized that he has issues he needs to work on too. If you get a good counselor it can make all the difference in the world.
 
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