Ethical Issue - Do I rat out my cousin?

[LitigatorChick]

So at a wedding this weekend, my aunt was chatting about her son, let''s call him B. B was quite a slacker for his 20s and basically hung out at my aunt''s house, mooching off her. In recent years however, he has apparently pulled it all together, has a government job, a lovely wife, and a couple kidlets. He recently was given a promotion and seems to be doing great.

This is where the dilemna kicks in. My dad asks, "How did B get a great government position out of nowhere, after slacking for 10 years?". The answer - he lied on his application. The biggest fib - he said he had a university degree, which he does not. He took a bunch of classes, but no degree. And obviously, the big smart government never checked. So here he is, this life based on a lie.

I have no malice to my cousin, and don''t want to see B''s happy life destroyed. But I have a huge problem with this major lie. I spent a lot of time in university, and my degrees were earned, not made-up. I resent this from that perspective.

So what do I do? Do I make an anonymous report to his employer about the misrepresentation? Or do I pretend I never heard this?

 

[ljmorgan]

What your cousin did was very wrong on several levels. It is actually illegal to knowingly falsify information when applying to work for the government. I can understand your resentment that he was able to obtain this job through a lie, especially when you''ve worked your way through school and hold a degree in high esteem.

On that note, I don''t think that it''s your place to intervene. He did likely break a law -- so I suppose that you could argue you have the right to report that. This is a personal decision. One that I would definitely not choose to involve myself in. His employer is not going to give him a slap on the wrist, he will likely be fired, and be lucky to not face anything further. When you work for the government, your education typically helps dictate your salary.

So really, will you feel vindicated for all of your hard work when your cousin is punished? Many, many people skate by, cheat, take the easy way, when other people work very hard for the same thing. I believe that these things tend to work themselves out over time -- people tend to get what they deserve. I suggest that you focus on all of the hard work that you''ve done, and let your cousin sort out his own life.

 

[VegasAngel]

As much as I would reaaally want to say something, I probably wouldn''t.

A lot of people in Vegas lie to get good jobs

.

 

[iheartscience]

You definitely need to stay out of it. It''s not affecting you in any way.

Obviously it''s wrong on many levels to falsify degrees and experience, but when it comes down to it, it''s the employer''s duty to check his background. They didn''t, hired him anyway, and he must be doing his job well enough to stay in his position.

What good will come from you ratting him out? Your feeling of vindication? It has nothing to do with you, so you should stay out of it.

 

[~*Snow*~]

LC: Depending how long he''s been in his position now it may not matter. The Gov''t of Canada states that anyone within the position that has held the position since before 1999, may apply for a higher position with out a Uni degree... It''s one of those silly loop holes, but normally the Gov''t will take the Uni grad, over the middle management guy who''s been there 10+years...

I''m not even sure where you''d complain to if you did.. Public Works?

But i''m with you on this one, i''ve worked my butt off for my degree (law as well!) and it''d burn me up inside knowing that someone flat out lied to get ahead...

 

[phoenixgirl]

I couldn''t turn him in either.

But I agree that''s despicable. And I suspect it will catch up with him sooner or later and he''ll pay the price one way or another.

 

[janinegirly]

Yea I''d have to say I''d stay quiet on this one. Maybe not quiet to his face or to family, but I wouldn''t go ratting him out. Even though it''s wrong, it''s not as huge as other potential immoral things he could have done which you would have to rat him out on in good conscience.

I think lies and gross exaggerations on resumes are common, and really, if the employer can''t do a simple background check then I''m sure many more have slipped through. It also may come back to haunt him later. The fact that that family knows and is chatting about it has to be pretty humiliating too.

 

[diamondsrock]

Date: 8/6/2008 10:01:33 AM
Author: thing2of2
You definitely need to stay out of it. It''s not affecting you in any way.

Obviously it''s wrong on many levels to falsify degrees and experience, but when it comes down to it, it''s the employer''s duty to check his background. They didn''t, hired him anyway, and he must be doing his job well enough to stay in his position.

What good will come from you ratting him out? Your feeling of vindication? It has nothing to do with you, so you should stay out of it.

I agree with this. It was wrong for him to lie, but I''d stay out of it. It doesn''t affect you. A lot of us have worked hard for our degrees, but that doesn''t mean we should step in and try to destroy someone else''s job. People lie all the time unfortunately. It is up to the employer to check this. By now, they probably wouldn''t even care since he''s been doing so well.

 

[littlelysser]

I understand that it is annoying and you may feel some sort of vindication for shining the light on his lie...but what result would that bring?

And really, it seems super selfish to me. He has a wife and a children. If he were to lose his job, THEIR lives would be forever changed. Is it really worth ruining their lives so you can feel a bit less resentment? Be proud of your degrees. You earned them. Would exposing his lie make you feel better about yourself? Your degrees?

Finally, considering that your Aunt just told your mom about this, and all of the sudden B gets fired for lying on his resume...I think it would come back to your mom and would completely mess up their relationship.

Very high price to pay for you to feel better.

 

[canuk-gal]

HI:

You know, for sure, he didn''t finish? What if he completed the rest of his degree through Distance Education, unknown to you?

I''m of the camp that while it is irksome and dishonest, it isn''t up to you to inform the Government of their oversight/carelessness. In cases such as these, I always feel that Karma eventually comes around.......

cheers--Sharon

 

[absolut_blonde]

I can''t believe they didn''t check! I have had 2 government jobs (and a total of 3 government offers, 1 which I declined) and all three of them checked my educational background. They required copies of my transcripts AND my diplomas. But, I was a newer grad... maybe they don''t worry as much once you''ve got more work experience behind you.

That said, I guess I''d leave it alone. It would bother me, too. But I figure that these things usually come back to bite the person in the butt eventually.

 

[miraclesrule]

My two cents...

If the hiring department cared so much about a degree they should have made sure they verified the degree in the first place. I always do, not because I care so much about a degree, as I hire based on talent and interviews and my gut instinct. Yet, I am a stickler for ingegrity. If an applicant tells me they have a degree, I verify it. If they lie, they don''t get hired.

So, in my eyes, the hiring office is either highly incompetent, which is why so many people getting away with lying...or they don''t really care.

If your cousin is now doing fine and he is talented at his job, then I hope they never find out about his lie. If he can''t perform or tried to slack, karma will probably come back and bite him in the booty.

It seems as though he is doing what he can, with what he''s got. I hope that for his family''s sake, that he is a good employee and remains gainfully employed in order for the family to thrive.

I don''t think you would feel better if you ratted him out. In fact, I think it would be just the opposite.

 

[Loves Vintage]

1. How do you know he lied on his application? Is this an assumption you are making?

2. It sounds as though you''ve known about this (or suspected it) for a while. What triggered your reaction to want to report him now?

3. There is nothing good that could come from your reporting him. You cannot control other people. If you are unhappy with the way your cousin handled things, then maybe you need to have a frank discussion with him directly.

 

[Skippy123]

Date: 8/6/2008 11:28:16 AM
Author: canuk-gal
HI:

You know, for sure, he didn''t finish? What if he completed the rest of his degree through Distance Education, unknown to you?

I''m of the camp that while it is irksome and dishonest, it isn''t up to you to inform the Government of their oversight/carelessness. In cases such as these, I always feel that Karma eventually comes around.......

cheers--Sharon

I agree with this and if you are wrong I feel the Karma goes around the other way too. I would stay out of it; like Sharon said he may have finished it through distance ed.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Why now? He''s married, has kids, has proven himself to be capable in his position. It''s a moot point now.

I can understand your frustration with his dishonesty, and I don''t think it''s wrong to say something...to him. Not his employer or other family members. If you feel that his dishonestly is damaging your relationship with him, I see nothing wrong with talking with him in private about it.

 

[movie zombie]

Date: 8/6/2008 11:55:57 AM
Author: Skippy123

Date: 8/6/2008 11:28:16 AM
Author: canuk-gal
HI:

You know, for sure, he didn''t finish? What if he completed the rest of his degree through Distance Education, unknown to you?

I''m of the camp that while it is irksome and dishonest, it isn''t up to you to inform the Government of their oversight/carelessness. In cases such as these, I always feel that Karma eventually comes around.......

cheers--Sharon

I agree with this and if you are wrong I feel the Karma goes around the other way too. I would stay out of it; like Sharon said he may have finished it through distance ed.

+1.

two wrongs do not make a right.....and you would be the 2nd wrong, if in fact he did falsify an application. if he did lie on the app, then he will pay a price for that eventually. if you rat on him and he actually did finish a degree, you will look a fool. in either case, you will have put not only his immediate family in jeopardy, but you will have disrupted the relationship of extended family members. bad karma?! you bet.

movie zombie

ps congrats on working hard and getting your degree!

 

[Anastasia]

What she said (and very eloquently may I add!!)

Date: 8/6/2008 11:41:58 AM
Author: miraclesrule
My two cents...

If the hiring department cared so much about a degree they should have made sure they verified the degree in the first place. I always do, not because I care so much about a degree, as I hire based on talent and interviews and my gut instinct. Yet, I am a stickler for ingegrity. If an applicant tells me they have a degree, I verify it. If they lie, they don''t get hired.

So, in my eyes, the hiring office is either highly incompetent, which is why so many people getting away with lying...or they don''t really care.

If your cousin is now doing fine and he is talented at his job, then I hope they never find out about his lie. If he can''t perform or tried to slack, karma will probably come back and bite him in the booty.

It seems as though he is doing what he can, with what he''s got. I hope that for his family''s sake, that he is a good employee and remains gainfully employed in order for the family to thrive.

I don''t think you would feel better if you ratted him out. In fact, I think it would be just the opposite.

 

[diamondfan]

That is a tough moral issue.

I think it is clearly reprehensible to lie to get a government job, or any job of importance, no doubt, but the way the system works sometimes one cannot get a chance otherwise. Again, totally not condoning it, but if you were in his place and HAD cleaned up your act legitimately but could not now make a go of things, it would be a bind that is hard to get out of. To me, sometimes people make foolish choices, and those choices sadly impact them the rest of their lives, which is sometimes a real shame, especially if the person really HAS changed. Some people are just train wrecks their whole lives and never get it together, but sometimes people DO manage and then doors are closed to them, which is unfair. I am certain many people fudge details or omit things, still not cool but I know it happens all of the time. I am a brutally honest person so it riles me to no end, but I know some people's moral compass does not point due north (a line from 27 Dresses that I love) and so it is easier for them to play fast and loose a bit with the truth.

I see how it rankles personally, you worked hard and earned what you have, and I can see how the lie would be so irritating and repulsive. However, if he really IS earning the right now, and is working hard and successfully cleaned up his act, I think there is nothing to be gained by ratting him out and you actually might look spiteful and vindicative. Trust me, I have a sister with sociopathic behaviors and she has spent a lifetime lying, and if people do not wish to accept it, it is tough to be the messenger.

I also think the office could have verified it, and did not, or so it would seem. I think at this point, if he is deserving of where he is now, let it go, you can certainly feel it is wrong, but ratting him out will not really accomplish much in the long run, and he has to live with the knowledge that he lied. I am sure he worries even now about getting found out and that is pretty scary too. He just needed a chance to get in the door and make it work, which it seems to me he is.

 

[LitigatorChick]

Hey everyone.

I hope my post didn''t make it sound like I wanted to get back at my cousin or something. I really don''t want to do anything. But I can''t shake this feeling that there is something really wrong here.

Yah, the employer didn''t check (I have no indepedent confirmation, other than his own mother expressly saying he did not complete university and that he did get the job by lying on his application form). But I have had situations where the cashier didn''t scan all my purchases, and I don''t say, oh well, they should be more careful. I point out the error and pay for it. So I have a hard time with blaming the incompetence of his employer for "letting" him get away with a lie.

He might be doing well, but what if he misses something important because he does not have the proper training, and as a result, people get killed. I don''t want to disclose too much, but his job involved public safety issues.

 

[cara]

Why on earth would you? Really, you would actually want to be the one who tips over his house of cards?

The cards may all come falling down at some point anyway, in which case I hope you'll be there to help his wife and kids pick up the pieces. But as long as his position is one he is actually capable of doing properly without the degree, I don't see it as your place to speak up. This is not like the Unibomber's brother going to the police with his suspicions - this is ratting out a lie on a resume! Seems not your business, and the family complications could be substantial.

The answer would be different if he were pretending to be a medical doctor, or a civil engineer, or were, say, embezzling money. If he is also lying to his wife, that *might* be an instance for disclosure, as presumably at some point it would require complicity on your part or your family's part to keep her in the dark. And he is gambling with her life as well as his own, so maybe she deserves to know.

No one is perfect, and in at least a few of these instances people go down hard late in their career, having had to stick with a lie told long ago on a resume. The fear of that outcome is this guy's burden.

 

[swingirl]

It is only gossip at this point. You have no proof. You haven''t seen his resume. It is the responsibility of whom even hired him to check the references. They may well know his education. You will look pretty foolish if you try to blow the whistle and there is nothing to blow about. Besides, who exactly would you tell?

People''s jobs are important. You shouldn''t try to toy with this family''s life over hearsay.

 

[somethingshiny]

LC~

First, I don''t think you should say anything. I just don''t think it''s your place, or your responsibility to make sure no one lies on their application (which you actually have no proof of).

And, as far as "people getting killed", he can''t possibly be the ONLY one making decisions on public safety standards. He''s part of a team. Let that be a comfort to you.

I understand that you worked hard for your degree(s), but I don''t think that''s a reason to hold anything over him or against him. YES, he (may have) made a huge lie on his application, and I also consider that reprehensible. But, you''re gonna have to let it go because the only person you''re hurting is yourself.

 

[Elmorton]

Ditto to Canuk girl...This is one of those things where, without you, karma will eventually play a role. Someone will ask "Oh hey, did you know so-and-so when you were at University X? Do you remember when blank happened on the quad?" - His answer will be suspicious, someone will check it out, and he''ll end up with the consequences. Something will inevitably happen, and you don''t need to be the catalyst. Also, if the whole fam knows, then someone will eventually find out. That''s one of those little secrets where if you don''t want it to get out, you really need to keep your mouth shut to everyone.

And if the truth never surfaces...well, at least he figured out how to do something with his life. Maybe some good will come out of it.

 

[Bia]

Keep the info to yourself. I do not see the point in getting involved. Degree or no degree, he got the job. If he has managed to keep it, he's doing something right...therefore, I can't see how an attempt to dismantle his career would help anyone--especially his wife and children.

just my .02 ¢

 

[vita*dolce]

yuck. i understand where you''re coming from, as my boyfriend''s best friend did exactly the same thing and is making twice what my bf is as a result. it really bothers me... but mostly because i resent that i''m working my you-know-what off in law school and scraping by on next to nothing while he''s living it up because he''s sketchy enough to lie about his accomplishments.

that said, i STRONGLY believe that you should never turn your back on family. omerta, baby, keep that mouth SHUT. especially since you wouldn''t be doing it because you feel like his misrepresentation is hurting anyone, you''d be doing it because you resent it. though he''d deserve to be fired, you''d ultimately feel guilty about being the reason he and his family were struggling, especially since he''d have trouble finding another job after being discharged for that reason and he has young children to provide for.

 

[littlelysser]

LG -

Missing something because he didn't have the proper training? That seems like a bit of a stretch. He is clearly doing his job well enough to merit a raise.

You said yourself that he took a bunch of university classes but did not actually graduate. And lets be honest...unless his fake degree is in something like physical therapy and he is working as physical therapist, then his "training" really isn't relevant to his job.

If his actual training was that necessary, then I would imagine that they would have checked it. And ratting your cousin out is NOT the same thing as returning to a store because you weren't charged for an item. You have to be able to see the difference there. In once instance you are remedying an error made by a clerk that could result in that person being fired and you receiving merchandise for which you didn't pay. In another, you are turning your cousin in because he lied on his resume, despite the fact that he's done a very good job since that time. That analogy really doesn't hold water.

Your first post talked only about resenting him...after people said that was pretty awful, you've raised the education issue.

It seems like you are looking for someone to say to go ahead and turn him in...but it doesn't look like that is going to happen. The only person that has to be okay with your decision is you and your conscience.

 

[Independent Gal]

Yes it was lousy if he lied on his application.

No it is absolutely NOT your place to rat him out. That would petty and mean. Now, if he was practicing medicine and perscribing drugs without a medical degree or building bridges without an engineering degree, then you might have an obligation to talk to HIM about what he had done, because peoples'' lives would be at risk.

But because he isn''t endangering anybody pushing paper around, why would you put his family, his children at risk of UTTER disaster?! And sendin him spiraling back into loserdom? Seriously, what would you gain by doing that to his wife and kids?

The thing is, if he can do the job without a degree, great. If he can''t do the job, he''ll end up pushed out anyway.

And yes, I really do think what he did is horrible. But ratting him out will help NOBODY, including him, and it will hurt at least four people. And, I suspect, you too, because I can''t imagine anyone in the family would really thank you for that.

That''s my 2 cts.

 

[blondie23]

A big DITTO to Canuk-gal and Cara...this is not your place. Why would you even feel like this is your burden to bear? right or wrong, it's not your life. if you feel compelled to do so bring it up with him, but that is as far as I would take it.

I am going to have to agree with Something Shiny....in terms of people being killed, no one works in a silo anymore...there is a team around him. I also work for a job where people are killed and protected every day by the products we produce (i'm an engineer for a government defense contractor), but people are not going to be killed by one individual employee. people work together in teams to make sure things are done right.

 

[Independent Gal]

Date: 8/6/2008 12:40:06 PM
Author: LitigatorChick


He might be doing well, but what if he misses something important because he does not have the proper training, and as a result, people get killed. I don''t want to disclose too much, but his job involved public safety issues.

Did he say he had a degree in public safety? Or just a degree in the humanities, social sciences or some such? The thing is, very few people ''train'' specifically for the job they have. You''re trained ON the job by doing. I''ve had all kinds of jobs that I didn''t know SQUAT about before I started working there. They hired me because I was able to learn the job, not because I had a degree in the job. Look at management consultants. They learn a new business with each new client, practically.

Unless he claimed to have specialized knowledge, rather than general education, I don''t think you need to worry about that aspect.

 

[Rhea]

I agree with all the others. It''s not very fair that he got ahead though supposedly lying while you worked hard to get to where you are. I wouldn''t be happy about that situation either. But that doesn''t mean that you should rat him out. It seems from what you typed that he can do his job and at this point that''s all that really matter until he''s found out.