Discipline Question

[KimberlyH]

What would the punishment be if your 3 year old hit a baby over the head with a book while visiting the baby at his/her house?

 

[Tacori E-ring]

Was it an accident? I would tell my child is not okay to hit anyone on the head with a book and if it was on purpose I would give her a time-out. If it was an accident I would still say the previous statement but would not punish her. I would also make sure I was given the toddler some attention so he/she did not feel threatened by the presence of the baby.

 

[KimberlyH]

It was intentional and the baby wasn't recieving attention from either adult present, the three year old asked to come see the baby, does so frequently and is used to the baby.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

I think it is difficult to know what is really going on in their little heads. Even if the toddler does not appear threatened, it is a possibility. I am guessing this happened and you are unhappy with how the mother handled the situation. My daughter KNOWS some behavior (hitting, throwing things at people, punching, pinching, biting, etc) is unacceptable and she will be disciplined. If a parent is not sending a consistent message, the child's behavior will be erratic. As soon as DD hurts me on accident she has panic in her eyes and says how sorry she is (no time-out). If it is on purpose, which happens b/c she is a toddler, she KNOWS a time-out is coming.

 

[KimberlyH]

It did happen and I was/am unhappy because it was clear to me the punishment was completely ineffective, and the parent should have been aware of that as well. As a behavioral consultant and (former and future) teacher who has worked with every age from preschool through middle school I know a lot about kids and effective discipline so it's hard for me to watch a parent fail to do so properly, even harder when my child is the target of bad behavior. I really like the parent, but her parenting choices makes it difficult for me to want to be friends with her. I am curious how others would respond, but aware that so much depends on who the child is and what he/she responds to.

 

[TravelingGal]

I would put my kid in time out in a corner somewhere where she'll least disturb that household. Then after a few minutes, I would tell her no hitting, and I'm sorry, but playtime is over for today and we will have to go home.

 

[somethingshiny]

This has actually happened to us recently. I may be unusual, but I have no problem correcting someone else's kid if they've messed with mine. Of course, the only kids we hang out with are family or friends' kids so it's accepted. I always reprimand with words and actions. "No hitting" and time out. If it happens again, "No hitting" time out and loss of toy. If we're at someone else's house, this is when we leave if my child has misbehaved or I suggest that the offending child leave my house. If it happens again, I make the child sit on a chair indefinitely. IMO, you have to show each child that they are protected. The ones that are watching the baby get hit and the offending child get away with it will no longer feel safe.

In severe cases, I do spank JT. I give him the benefit of the doubt the first two times but on the third, he gets a swat on the behind. My siblings usually spank after the first warning.

 

[meresal]

I agree with TG... punish there, so that they understand rules apply to ALL households (including timeouts), then have my child apologize to the mother, and then leave.

I get very defensive when I feel like my child is mistreated, so I am not sure I would be able to carry on a friendship with this person. Did the child explain why she thought that this was ok?

I have a 10 yo nephew who thought it was ok to push on my 7 month old nephew's soft spot. Mother of baby was furious when she walked in and cought him doing it, AFTER she had already warned him, and mom of 10 year old said her son was just being a *boy* and was *curious*. Insane.
I will never allow him to be alone with my child. He is psychotic.

 

[Jennifer W]

I'd take the approach TGal described. There are a few things that get A time out immediately, and hitting or throwing fall into that category. My first priority would be to give the offending child a clear message that what they did wasn't acceptable. I'd also want to let the other parent know that I was taking it seriously, because that's what I would expect if my kid was the recipient of the injury (however minor).

 

[MonkeyPie]

Any kid that intentionally hurt mine, and was not properly reprimanded by the mother/father, would NEVER be around my kids again. At least not until they were old enough to know better without guidance from the (apparently worthless) parent.

 

[Pandora II]

I would tell Daisy that you don't hit and she would get a 2 minute time out and have to apologise.

However, I would never not supervise ANY small child with a baby. Toddlers can have very odd reactions to small babies. I think if the toddler was allowed to be within touching distance of the baby without an adult right there then the parents must take some of the blame for what occurred.

I say this based one what I have observed with my siblings, cousins and multiple nephews and nieces - and my own behaviour... I didn't like my parents having a second child and I fed my baby sister dog biscuits, glass christmas tree ornaments and a few other bad things as well as the usual pinching and hitting - finally at 2.5 I ran away from home! I got over half a mile before being brought home and when asked why I had done so I explained I wanted to get my sister another nice mummy and another nice daddy.

Daisy adores her dolls but she'll cuddle them one minute and belt them one the next, I only let her touch real live babies if I am actually holding her hand. I would probably trust a 5 year old but no younger.

 

[KimberlyH]

SS, as dumb as it sounds, if I knew them better I'd have intervened. They're neighbors and the girl drops in ~once a week with her mom or nanny as she loves babies. If we were closer I'd have ended the visit, but because I don't know them well didn't feel comfortable doing so.

Jennifer and TG, I'd have left as well, the time out may have waited until we were home.

Pan, J was on my lap, the girl was next to us sitting sideways, not facing us, reading the book; it literally came out of nowhere. I agree that little ones are so impulsive they must always be monitored and do only let her touch J when I'm helping her (same goes for my 5 year old nephew and ths kids' 5 year old sister). As you know, cognitively there is a big difference between under 2 and over 3.

Mere, that made my stomach turn.

The mom responded w/ a 2 minute time out in the same room as us, which she spent part of kicking her mom. She had to apologize to J after. As I said, it was evident the consequence was meaningless. She's hit me before, repeatedly in the head under the guise of making a wooden doll dance on my head, and the doll was put in time out, so this was better than that but still not really effective for this kid. I'm in an awkward position, I don't handle things like this well. I like them, I just can't stand the response to her behavior.

 

[meresal]

However, I would never not supervise ANY small child with a baby. Toddlers can have very odd reactions to small babies. I think if the toddler was allowed to be within touching distance of the baby without an adult right there then the parents must take some of the blame for what occurred.
.

Pandora, I'm not sure if you were reffering to my post, but I completely agree with you re: not leaving children with children unattended. My newphew, who I would never allow to watch my kids, is turning 11 years old in a month, and the incident I mentioned happened just this last summer. He is almost to the age of babysitting, which is why I mentioned it.

 

[KimberlyH]

MP, I just saw your post. Part of me wishes I was that hard nosed about it. The mom has told me repeatedly she's overwhelmed by her daughter, I feel badly for her. I wish I could have her as a secret client, devise a behavior plan for their family!

 

[meresal]

Kimberly, if she has already confided in you that she is overwhelmed... why don't you offer? Just put it out there and see if she is interested?

*Edited for grammar

 

[KimberlyH]

She's a family therapist, and she has a system in place, it's just doesn't appear to be working for them (in my opinion they aren't strict enough with her, but I don't think the mom wants to be any more strict than she is). I don't think the offer would be well received.

 

[meresal]

Ya, I can see how that probably wouldn't go over well, if she is a therapist as well.

Would you mind sharing what she *did* do when the book incident occurred?

ETA: Sorry, I just noticed your follow up a few posts up. Nevermind.

 

[TravelingGal]

I can't stand it when people put objects in time out. WTF? My BFF got kicked by her friend's son. The mother put the BOOTS in time out. I get that with the doll, they are trying to take away the object that kid wants, but the kid will go find something else to do.

Kimberly, I would have put the kid in another room for the time out, and it wouldn't have waited for it to be after we left because I want Amelia to know right then and there there is a consequence. However, I have trained her plenty well and good that time outs are exactly that, time outs. I recently put her into time out at our local mall. Found a corner and did it. And she's so trained to have BOTH hands firmly glued to the wall, that it's fairly easy to do anywhere since she literally "stuck" in time out.

RE: leaving children to play unsupervised...at this stage, I can't do it. We were just at a thanksgiving party with HORDES of other children and all their parents were downstairs drinking while the kids were upstairs playing. They ranged in age from 2-6, with one 8 year old supervising. The 8 year old girl was amazing, but I really felt it wasn't her job to try to keep the chaos to a minimum. There was pushing, shoving, hitting going on as well as kids playing with doors (one of my nightmares) I felt it was no one's job but mine to watch my kid, and just didn't feel comfortable. However, she since is an only child, at some point, I do think it's important to let her play without me watching over her, as children need to learn to deal with things in social situations and regulate themselves.

 

[Tuckins1]

I think for a three year old it would have to be an immediate reprimand (no hitting/etc) and a 3 minute time out. Anything more than that I think would be lost on them.

 

[KimberlyH]

Tuckins, most 3 year olds get: if we don't play nice we don't play, which is why I would leave if I were the parent. Time outs mean nothing to this kid, perhaps more than 2 minutes in another room with no interaction would.

TG: At least she didn't put my head in time out.

 

[dreamer_dachsie]

If it was my three-year old, I would get in there, say firmly "You do not hi" and then most likely do a time out. After that, I would explain again that he cannot hit, and then I would take him over to the baby and encourage him to nicely stroke or pat the baby or kiss the baby and say he was sorry to the baby.

I don't know many 3 year olds though. My son is 2 and if he did that I would do all of the above without the time out because we do not do those with him yet. He will hit occassionally but is just starting to understand what it means. Toddlers do not totally understand cause and effect, or that they can hurt other people. I guess that is what we are trying to teach them with our responses. ETA: I think the notion of "punishment" at that age is misguided though. Teaching cause and effect is one thing, trying to teach them to internalize rules and teaching them to self-regulate, yes. But pure punishment in the form of an aversive consequence is not my bag. Even time out is not a punishment and should not be in my opinion. It is a teaching tool to help them focus and understand and listen and calm down. Just my 2c.

Our friends' daughter hit their baby on the head with a pan once! Can't recall the ages. It is pretty common, even with kids who are "well disciplined".

 

[TravelingGal]

If it was my three-year old, I would get in there, say firmly "You do not hi" and then most likely do a time out. After that, I would explain again that he cannot hit, and then I would take him over to the baby and encourage him to nicely stroke or pat the baby or kiss the baby and say he was sorry to the baby.

I don't know many 3 year olds though. My son is 2 and if he did that I would do all of the above without the time out because we do not do those with him yet. He will hit occassionally but is just starting to understand what it means. Toddlers do not totally understand cause and effect, or that they can hurt other people. I guess that is what we are trying to teach them with out responses.

Our friends' daughter hit their baby on the head with a pan once! Can't recall the ages. It is pretty common, even with kids who are "well disciplined".

My friend always tried the "nice nice" technique with her son...patting and stroking whatever he hit. Didn't work well without the discipline though...when his little sister came along, he bit her head, taking out a chunk of hair.

 

[dreamer_dachsie]

If it was my three-year old, I would get in there, say firmly "You do not hi" and then most likely do a time out. After that, I would explain again that he cannot hit, and then I would take him over to the baby and encourage him to nicely stroke or pat the baby or kiss the baby and say he was sorry to the baby.

I don't know many 3 year olds though. My son is 2 and if he did that I would do all of the above without the time out because we do not do those with him yet. He will hit occassionally but is just starting to understand what it means. Toddlers do not totally understand cause and effect, or that they can hurt other people. I guess that is what we are trying to teach them with out responses.

Our friends' daughter hit their baby on the head with a pan once! Can't recall the ages. It is pretty common, even with kids who are "well disciplined".

My friend always tried the "nice nice" technique with her son...patting and stroking whatever he hit. Didn't work well without the discipline though...when his little sister came along, he bit her head, taking out a chunk of hair.

It works well with Hunter. He will sometimes be rougher but now when we say "gentle" as he gets near the dog he will slow down and gently pat him. They used the same method at daycare.

I believe that it is not about the immediate consequence in these situation, but the entire system in which the child lives. If you are a wishy washy parent and then try to "discipline" when big things happen, of course it won't go over well. That is because your child needs to learn self-regulation, the most important skill they will ever learn in their life (i.e. impulse control), and that learning does NOT happen in time out. It happens day in and day out when we guide their behaviour and pay attention to what they are doing and be consistent in our rules. So the finger should not be pointed at one response to a violation, if we think there is a breakdown in the child's self-regulation. My guess is that it is a sytematic thins. Does the child get attention when they hit/throw/behave badly and get ignored when they play well? Does the parent say "no" and then give in? Does the parent have one rule one day and a different rule another day? Honestly, it does not matter if you are the strictest parent in the world or a much laxer parent, if you are *consistent* in your rules, and involved in their everyday behaviours, and model self-regulation for your child, they will learn the skill. Like you TGal, I would not have left my child to play with the wolves at the party. How would I be able to see his behaviour then and correct his bad behaviour?

 

[TravelingGal]

If it was my three-year old, I would get in there, say firmly "You do not hi" and then most likely do a time out. After that, I would explain again that he cannot hit, and then I would take him over to the baby and encourage him to nicely stroke or pat the baby or kiss the baby and say he was sorry to the baby.

I don't know many 3 year olds though. My son is 2 and if he did that I would do all of the above without the time out because we do not do those with him yet. He will hit occassionally but is just starting to understand what it means. Toddlers do not totally understand cause and effect, or that they can hurt other people. I guess that is what we are trying to teach them with out responses.

Our friends' daughter hit their baby on the head with a pan once! Can't recall the ages. It is pretty common, even with kids who are "well disciplined".

My friend always tried the "nice nice" technique with her son...patting and stroking whatever he hit. Didn't work well without the discipline though...when his little sister came along, he bit her head, taking out a chunk of hair.

It works well with Hunter. He will sometimes be rougher but now when we say "gentle" as he gets near the dog he will slow down and gently pat him. They used the same method at daycare.

I believe that it is not about the immediate consequence in these situation, but the entire system in which the child lives. If you are a wishy washy parent and then try to "discipline" when big things happen, of course it won't go over well. That is because your child needs to learn self-regulation, the most important skill they will ever learn in their life (i.e. impulse control), and that learning does NOT happen in time out. It happens day in and day out when we guide their behaviour and pay attention to what they are doing and be consistent in our rules. So the finger should not be pointed at one response to a violation, if we think there is a breakdown in the child's self-regulation. My guess is that it is a sytematic thins. Does the child get attention when they hit/throw/behave badly and get ignored when they play well? Does the parent say "no" and then give in? Does the parent have one rule one day and a different rule another day? Honestly, it does not matter if you are the strictest parent in the world or a much laxer parent, if you are *consistent* in your rules, and involved in their everyday behaviours, and model self-regulation for your child, they will learn the skill. Like you TGal, I would not have left my child to play with the wolves at the party. How would I be able to see his behaviour then and correct his bad behaviour?

Yup Dreamer, you are quite right. Pat pat nice nice would work with Amelia, but overall in our house, layer by layer, we've taught her how our "system" works. Which is not to say I believe she'll never hit someone. But the aftermath *should* work better because of the system she lives in.

 

[dreamer_dachsie]

If it was my three-year old, I would get in there, say firmly "You do not hi" and then most likely do a time out. After that, I would explain again that he cannot hit, and then I would take him over to the baby and encourage him to nicely stroke or pat the baby or kiss the baby and say he was sorry to the baby.

I don't know many 3 year olds though. My son is 2 and if he did that I would do all of the above without the time out because we do not do those with him yet. He will hit occassionally but is just starting to understand what it means. Toddlers do not totally understand cause and effect, or that they can hurt other people. I guess that is what we are trying to teach them with out responses.

Our friends' daughter hit their baby on the head with a pan once! Can't recall the ages. It is pretty common, even with kids who are "well disciplined".

My friend always tried the "nice nice" technique with her son...patting and stroking whatever he hit. Didn't work well without the discipline though...when his little sister came along, he bit her head, taking out a chunk of hair.

It works well with Hunter. He will sometimes be rougher but now when we say "gentle" as he gets near the dog he will slow down and gently pat him. They used the same method at daycare.

I believe that it is not about the immediate consequence in these situation, but the entire system in which the child lives. If you are a wishy washy parent and then try to "discipline" when big things happen, of course it won't go over well. That is because your child needs to learn self-regulation, the most important skill they will ever learn in their life (i.e. impulse control), and that learning does NOT happen in time out. It happens day in and day out when we guide their behaviour and pay attention to what they are doing and be consistent in our rules. So the finger should not be pointed at one response to a violation, if we think there is a breakdown in the child's self-regulation. My guess is that it is a sytematic thins. Does the child get attention when they hit/throw/behave badly and get ignored when they play well? Does the parent say "no" and then give in? Does the parent have one rule one day and a different rule another day? Honestly, it does not matter if you are the strictest parent in the world or a much laxer parent, if you are *consistent* in your rules, and involved in their everyday behaviours, and model self-regulation for your child, they will learn the skill. Like you TGal, I would not have left my child to play with the wolves at the party. How would I be able to see his behaviour then and correct his bad behaviour?

Yup Dreamer, you are quite right. Pat pat nice nice would work with Amelia, but overall in our house, layer by layer, we've taught her how our "system" works. Which is not to say I believe she'll never hit someone. But the aftermath *should* work better because of the system she lives in.

I am fully accepting that Hunter will likely hit, smack, kick, and poke our new baby when it arrives. Pat pat or no pat pat.

 

[TravelingGal]

I do think it's somewhat normal dreamer, so I'd assume the same if I had a kid. But it hopefully won't happen repeatedly when kids are very young. My BFF's kid who is really well behaved (my friend is VERY good at setting boundaries and following through with consistency) kicked her little brother down the stairs when he was a toddler. Fortunately it was only 3 or 4 stairs, but she looked around before she did it to make sure no one could see. She didn't know I was watching.

Of course, battles happen when they get older. My mom was an excellent mother, but I was just a demon child and went for blood. Of course, we were latch key kids, so my mom simply couldn't watch us and my little brother could get my goat like no other.

 

[dreamer_dachsie]

I do think it's somewhat normal dreamer, so I'd assume the same if I had a kid. But it hopefully won't happen repeatedly when kids are very young. My BFF's kid who is really well behaved (my friend is VERY good at setting boundaries and following through with consistency) kicked her little brother down the stairs when he was a toddler. Fortunately it was only 3 or 4 stairs, but she looked around before she did it to make sure no one could see. She didn't know I was watching.

Of course, battles happen when they get older. My mom was an excellent mother, but I was just a demon child and went for blood. Of course, we were latch key kids, so my mom simply couldn't watch us and my little brother could get my goat like no other.

Freud had it right in many respects, we are animals at heart. Sibling rivaly just ain't no joke.

My MIL put it well. She said that for a child, when the new baby comes home, it is no different than if your husband brough home a new wife and expected you to love and cuddle her Most likely you would want to kick her down the stairs too.

I liked that analogy and will try to keep it in mind when the time comes. The fact is, the new baby will be utterly clueless about anything for the first 3 months at least, but Hunter will know exactly what is going on and will have hurt feelings if he is not given enough attention. I need to be empathetic to that I guess.

 

[TravelingGal]

My mother was very sensitive to it with my and my bro. We're only 15 months apart. She said if I was crying or whatever, she tended to take care of my needs first. As a result, she said I was great with my brother and very loving. It was only when I got older that I decided he was a royal pain!

 

[NovemberBride]

I would have stopped the behavior, explained that it was wrong and why, and then given a brief time out (couple of minutes). Honestly, all little kids will kick, bite, punch, etc. at some point, no matter how well disciplined they are by their parents. Of course, that doesn't mean you shouldn't react and discipline them, it is our job as parents to teach our children how to behave properly and correct them when they behave inappropriately. But it's not the end of the world and a baby isn't going to suffer permanent damage from a bop on the head or getting whacked with a toy. I know it is hard as parents to see your kids get hurt, but I like to keep things in perspective. Just remember, no matter how hard you try, one day your kid will be the biter, hitter, etc.

My DD was bit a couple of times at daycare (she is 1). The daycare followed the protocol, called me at work to let me know what happened and that she was ok and had me sign a form when I picked her up. Although I was of course very upset my child was bit, I thanked the teacher for letting me know, told her I knew it was common in the age group and that I was sure she was fine. I was glad this was my response when a month later my DD bit someone every day for a week. She was 11 months at the time and too young to know what she was doing - she was teething and biting a lot at the time. At home and at school we stopped her and told her "no biting" when she started to bite, but at that age they are really too young to know right from wrong. But I was glad I didn't fly off the handle when DD got bit because I would have felt foolish when she did it a few months later and I realized there was nothing I could have done to prevent it.

Kim, it seems like there is a lot about the way this woman parents that bothers you. I think you need to make a decision to get past it or to no longer socialize with her. It is every parent's decision how to discipline their children,and I don't really think it's appropriate to comment on your friend's parenting style, especially since it sounds like the child was disciplined, just not in the way you would have done it. I know if someone I socialized with criticized my parenting style, that might be the end of our friendship (depending on the friend and the way the critique was phrased of course). As most of my friends have had kids over the past 2 years, I've noticed that we all have very different parenting styles. It doesn't bother me, they are raising their kids the way they see fit, and I am raising mine. If there truly was a safety issue I would address it, but I don't see this as falling into that category.

 

[KimberlyH]

I was using consequence interchangeably with punishment, I would never advocate a consequence that wasn't logical and meaningful. In this case time out just allowed her to control the situation, the room when quiet and all focus was on her. I tried to interact with J, but that was amusing her, while she was kicking mom and talking. So I sat quietly with my head down with J on my lap until her time out ended.

Prior to natural consequences falling into place -- if they were both older it is likely J would say "I don't want to play with her, she hit me" and I would take her home -- but until that time comes somehow a parent must instill that the behavior is unacceptable (doesn't mean it won't happen again, just that it won't be tolerated). For some kids time out is more than enough, for others it means nothing, especially when done as it was. Strict or lax is an issue in that I know this child would do much better if she had firmer boundaries. Mom is fairly consistent but the child is difficult and a heavier hand, figuratively speaking, would help reign her behavior in.