windows bad? please help

[sapphiregirl123]

I recently purchased a sapphire for my engagement ring. It's a cornflower blue, 7 x 5 mm oval. It's a brilliant color, but it has a window in the center. From reading about colored stones, I've learned windows are bad, but when I took it into a local jeweler to look at settings, he said it was a good cut and that most of the colored stones will have windows, but since it was right in the center, that it was a good stone. Is a window a major issue and sign to return the gem or is it ok to have this?

 

[sapphiregirl123]

photos of the sapphire

 

[T L]

I recently purchased a sapphire for my engagement ring. It's a cornflower blue, 7 x 5 mm oval. It's a brilliant color, but it has a window in the center. From reading about colored stones, I've learned windows are bad, but when I took it into a local jeweler to look at settings, he said it was a good cut and that most of the colored stones will have windows, but since it was right in the center, that it was a good stone. Is a window a major issue and sign to return the gem or is it ok to have this?

It depends on you. Many people cannot tolerate a window, or anything less than a precision cut gem. However, some people can tolerate a less than perfect cut, or a window, if the color is good enough. I can tolerate a small window, in particular if the gem is saturated in color, but I don't like gaping windows. Is the window much less evident in the setting? Sometimes they "close up" when set, as the metal gives the illusion that the window is no longer there, or it's lessened. Unfortunately, well cut sapphires are rare, as the rough is typically not exported out for cutting. Most well cut sapphires are recuts, or African material.

ETA: I see your photos as I was about to post this, and it's a pretty decent sized window. My guess is that most people here wouldn't tolerate that for an e-ring. It also looks to have a significant bow tie too.

 

[movie zombie]

its all what you want and what you like. many can tolerate a window, espeically a tilt window.

since you asked and i hope it doesn't hurt your feelings but this particular window would drive me crazy.
but that is ME.
i have a thing about windows.

but this is YOU: how are you going to set it? different settings are going to make the window less noticeable.

re the bowtie: its really obvious because of the large window which makes the center look much lighter than the rest of the stone.

 

[sapphiregirl123]

Before I knew it was there, it didn't bother me. Now that I see it, it's making me crazy. Settings do darken it. I have no idea how I will set it. Halo maybe. I picked it for the color. I could have gotten a bigger stone in a different color, but I couldn't pass up this stellar blue. The photos do it no justice.

 

[Pandora II]

The vast majority of stones I see in jewellers windows have massive big windows and it pains me!

I'm not particularly into precision cutting, so I'm fine with a small window that closes up in a setting.

However, since you asked, that size window would drive me crazy and I'm guessing that now you've noticed it, it will drive you nuts too. I would look for another stone.

Frankly, unless you have a great jeweller who knows about coloured stones, or who can access a lot for you to choose from, then you may do a lot better buying on-line (like most of us!). There is a vendor thread at the top of the page - if you work through those you'll get an idea of what is out there.

 

[chrono]

When a gemstone has a window, it is ALWAYS smack dab in the center when viewed top down from the crown. A tilt window will be seen as off center and can only be seen when the stone is viewed at an angle.

I don't mind stones with a small window and tilt windows are normal, with the size depending on both the cutting and the RI of the gemstone. However, your stone seems to have a good sized window which probably will not close up. In order to give the appearance of closing the window, you will need an enclosed type of setting which may further darken the stone of the stone (and not everybody wants a darker stone).

It is true that most commercial cut stones will have windowing issues but it doesn't mean that you have to accept it if it bothers you.

 

[sapphiregirl123]

Thanks everyone! I am going to return it. I did buy it online and couldn't see the window until it got here. Now that I know it's there, it will bother me and I don't want a setting to darken the stone. It makes the point of purchasing THAT color moot! I appreciate all help! Can anyone tell me about Montana sapphires? I've just recently come across them on a link from another thread. Mostly greys that aren't that great, but there are a few lovely colors. Advice?

 

[T L]

Thanks everyone! I am going to return it. I did buy it online and couldn't see the window until it got here. Now that I know it's there, it will bother me and I don't want a setting to darken the stone. It makes the point of purchasing THAT color moot! I appreciate all help! Can anyone tell me about Montana sapphires? I've just recently come across them on a link from another thread. Mostly greys that aren't that great, but there are a few lovely colors. Advice?

I would look into Montana and African sapphires as some precision cutters can obtain the rough and cut them well. I think most Montana sapphires have a lot of grey. I prefer Madagascar sapphires for some have very fine color, and you don't have to pay the weight lost in a recut, as in Asian sapphires (Burma and Ceylon). Someone in the know told me that Tanzanian sapphires aren't really diffused, but always get a reputable lab report if you are paying a significant amount, as you don't want to spend a lot on diffused material.

Good luck.

 

[chrono]

Most Montana sapphires are unheated but rarely is one that is a pure blue. Most are greenish blue.

 

[T L]

Most Montana sapphires are unheated but rarely is one that is a pure blue. Most are greenish blue.

Same thing with Australian material. I heard that some Australian material is being diffused to beautiful colors and being sold as Ceylon material and heated only. I don't know how true this is, but buyer beware.

 

[Starzin]

Same thing with Australian material. I heard that some Australian material is being diffused to beautiful colors and being sold as Ceylon material and heated only. I don't know how true this is, but buyer beware.

Sad to hear diffusion has hit the Aussie sapphire trade...on the other hand any improvement in their colour would help enormously!

Think dark denim and you'll be in the right ball park http://www.google.com.au/search?q=a...a=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CD8Q_AUoAQ

As to the window on this stone, I think you've done the right thing in returning it. Once you notice a window it's hard to ignore and I think you'll be happier in the long run with a colour and cut you adore.

 

[LD]

Same thing with Australian material. I heard that some Australian material is being diffused to beautiful colors and being sold as Ceylon material and heated only. I don't know how true this is, but buyer beware.

Sad to hear diffusion has hit the Aussie sapphire trade...on the other hand any improvement in their colour would help enormously!

Think dark denim and you'll be in the right ball park http://www.google.com.au/search?q=a...a=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CD8Q_AUoAQ

As to the window on this stone, I think you've done the right thing in returning it. Once you notice a window it's hard to ignore and I think you'll be happier in the long run with a colour and cut you adore.

Be diffusion has been around for many years (15-20 I think) so no country is safe!

 

[1001smiles]

This one looks nice and similar size and shape, and untreated:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/330690779643

 

[sapphiregirl123]

Thank you all for the help! There are so many sapphires out there that it's hard to pick a color- almost. I have again fallen in love with a beautiful, teal colored sapphire. I don't care about size, but I want a color that isn't the same ol' same ol' and takes my breath away!

 

[Starzin]

...I heard that some Australian material is being diffused to beautiful colors...

and

Be diffusion has been around for many years (15-20 I think) so no country is safe!

Actually I tripped across this thread yesterday about sapphire origins and heating/diffusion and it has some photos of (other colour) Aussie sapphires http://gemologyonline.com/Forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=6886&start=15. It's hard to imagine any treatment making these the standard usually discussed here but your right LD, there's absolutely no reason to expect the Australian sapphire industry has escaped run of the mill diffusion.

Sorry to be so disparaging of the home grown stuff but they also tend to be small and inconsequential.

"Show Me Your Ugly Sapphires thread anyone?"

Sapphiregirl123 - while that sapphire looks pretty under lights, you may find it's considerably darker IRL but I'll let the others comment further.

 

[gsellis]

A comment on windows. First, Bill Gates made billions because of it...

Windows are not always a bad thing. A window can make rough lighten up. The scintillation will not be there, but the color will. A window may be the only way to get a cut stone out of rough that will not cut a stone any other way. A window may prevent thousands of dollars of some stones from being washed down the drain. A window may be the only way to do a novelty cut (the cuts that show butterflies, horses, cats, spiders, etc. in the stone). There are a couple of famous diamonds that the culet is one giant window.

I am cutting a windowed stone right now. It is a horse design. It will not be posted as an example here because it is verbotten material. But novelty cuts are about showing the design on the back (the facets on the pavilion are not polished and form a design). In fact, a stone cut with a novelty that is cut not to window is rather annoying. It tends to reflect and make it harder to see.

I am planning to cut a piece of rutile crystal and we are going to window it. Rutile only shows its deep red color with backlighting. The rutile is from the Adam's Farm in Hiddenite where one of the largest cut North American emerald's is from. Looking forward to playing with it.

Oh, wait, I have one I cut in spinel that was too shallow I can show as an example.

 

[chrys31]

Thank you all for the help! There are so many sapphires out there that it's hard to pick a color- almost. I have again fallen in love with a beautiful, teal colored sapphire. I don't care about size, but I want a color that isn't the same ol' same ol' and takes my breath away!

squeeeee! I am searching for a teal or something that's close to an aquamarine's color. i will be keeping up with your search

 

[sapphiregirl123]

Well then check out this one. This is what I was looking at, but the fiance isn't as crazy about the color. He wants to keep the original, window and all, because the color is so nice. I hope I'm allowed to post... I didn't see a list of rules, but some comments lead me to believe there are some..
http://www.gemfix.com/sapphire_montana.html

 

[chrys31]

I love these shades! I especially like the color of the 3 in the second row. I wish I could tell whether or not they were worth buying!

Did future FI pick the stone? I do so like the color of it! I can see why you guys would have a hard time parting with it.

 

[sapphiregirl123]

We both want a nice blue and love the cornflower.
Can anyone give me an idea on this stone? I can't tell if it's too dark or not.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/230420247025?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648
I'm also discussing the one suggested earlier with the seller.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/330690779643?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648
Can anyone see any obvious windows? Is it a good cut/ size? I can't get an idea on the oval... I'm scared it'll be long and thin. Thoughts??

 

[chrono]

Both stones are from the same vendor so you should ask for his comparison / opinion of the two. I'm not very good at reading his videos but I am concerned the first one might end up a little too dark once set. The second is a lovely colour but the shape is a bit longish. It will probably require a custom setting. Not quite an oval and yet not quite a rectangular cushion. It is also a wee bit on the shallow side but not too bad overall.

 

[movie zombie]

imo, both are going to be a lot darker than pictured.....calipers seem overly lighted.

 

[chrys31]

sapphiregirl, do you mind posting when you decide whether to pursue any of the stones on http://www.gemfix.com/sapphire_montana.html??

There are a couple that I want to ask for more pictures of, because I am really loving the colors! But I definitely do not want to buy anything out from under you, so I don't want to ask them until you decide on another stone. Let us know

 

[LD]

...I heard that some Australian material is being diffused to beautiful colors...

and

Be diffusion has been around for many years (15-20 I think) so no country is safe!

Actually I tripped across this thread yesterday about sapphire origins and heating/diffusion and it has some photos of (other colour) Aussie sapphires http://gemologyonline.com/Forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=6886&start=15. It's hard to imagine any treatment making these the standard usually discussed here but your right LD, there's absolutely no reason to expect the Australian sapphire industry has escaped run of the mill diffusion.

Sorry to be so disparaging of the home grown stuff but they also tend to be small and inconsequential.

"Show Me Your Ugly Sapphires thread anyone?"

Sapphiregirl123 - while that sapphire looks pretty under lights, you may find it's considerably darker IRL but I'll let the others comment further.

So many in that thread have enormous windows. I think most of us can accept small window that MAY close up with clever setting but I really do not understand where the beauty is with a stonking great big window if the gem doesn't have other overbearing redeeming qualities!

George - I understand that fancy cuts are the exception to this rule. As you say some very famous diamonds have windows (Hope for example) but their redeeming feature is usually the size and/or colour!

 

[Barrett]

 

[Starzin]

I hope I'm allowed to post... I didn't see a list of rules, but some comments lead me to believe there are some.

The "rules" pertain to copyright.

What I've gathered is this...normal copyright rules apply and some websites (such as LangAntiques, RubyLane etc) are always linked to for this reason - you can't post their photos anywhere. Unfortunately this means that when the item is sold the picture/info at the linked to listing disappears making the thread reference useless later on. I guess there's also the hope that once you follow a link to see what's there, you may get lost looking at other things and not return here. A somewhat short-sighted view, but there you are - copyright theft is rife.

As to the frequent posting of pics from vendors...make no mistake, their photos are also copyright. However they're friendly to PS and know that pics of their work create interest and may sell something to someone reading, but not involved in, the thread - so on the whole they don't mind pics being posted. It creates a lot of traffic for them and may also initiate an enquiry about something else. Having the pic in the thread just makes it a whole lot easier for people to read the arguments for and against without having to chase all over the Internet. I think this goes for the eBay sellers too.

Many of the vendors are frequent posters at PS and give freely of their expertise and knowledge. This is always appreciated and incredibly helpful. Cheers guys

And sometimes we post links just 'cos we're too lazy/don't have time at that moment to do the cut/paste/save/size/load

Disclaimer: All of the above are my assumptions - happy to be corrected if wrong.

 

[Starzin]

So many in that thread have enormous windows. I think most of us can accept small window that MAY close up with clever setting but I really do not understand where the beauty is with a stonking great big window if the gem doesn't have other overbearing redeeming qualities!

I fully understand that and agree totally! All I can do is shake my head over those Aussie sapphires, yet more knowledgeable peeps than I on that thread seemed to think they had merit

Barrett - Uh-oh the ebay glaziers strike again

 

[Barrett]

I hope I'm allowed to post... I didn't see a list of rules, but some comments lead me to believe there are some.

The "rules" pertain to copyright.

What I've gathered is this...normal copyright rules apply and some websites (such as LangAntiques, RubyLane etc) are always linked to for this reason - you can't post their photos anywhere. Unfortunately this means that when the item is sold the picture/info at the linked to listing disappears making the thread reference useless later on. I guess there's also the hope that once you follow a link to see what's there, you may get lost looking at other things and not return here. A somewhat short-sighted view, but there you are - copyright theft is rife.

As to the frequent posting of pics from vendors...make no mistake, their photos are also copyright. However they're friendly to PS and know that pics of their work create interest and may sell something to someone reading, but not involved in, the thread - so on the whole they don't mind pics being posted. It creates a lot of traffic for them and may also initiate an enquiry about something else. Having the pic in the thread just makes it a whole lot easier for people to read the arguments for and against without having to chase all over the Internet. I think this goes for the eBay sellers too.

Many of the vendors are frequent posters at PS and give freely of their expertise and knowledge. This is always appreciated and incredibly helpful. Cheers guys

And sometimes we post links just 'cos we're too lazy/don't have time at that moment to do the cut/paste/save/size/load

Disclaimer: All of the above are my assumptions - happy to be corrected if wrong.

Great post, Starzin!

 

[Starzin]

Thanks Barrett

As to the frequent posting of pics from vendors...make no mistake, their photos are also copyright. However they're friendly to PS...

I forgot to add...if you post a vendor's pic it's only manners to post the link too - after all you went there to get the pic. It's a two-way street.