Why is everything so overpriced or horrible selection?

[Niel]

Another yellow chrysoberyl. 2ct, $500
http://www.finewatergems.com/other-gemstones.html

Thanks. Also a very nice one.

I think I'll go with your suggestions.

The firewater one might be more up your ally. As it is said to have no green, where the first one i posted is said to be green-yellow.

Either way, try not to get frustrated.

 

[the_mother_thing]

Is this a new way to vie for the PS Holiday Getaway?

Snort

 

[VirginiaZee]

Is this a new way to vie for the PS Holiday Getaway?

Snort

If it is, it's working out well, no?

 

[liao]

Calling them parasite is highly offensive! and it makes you sounds immature.

About your argument on gold, try to read Irrational Exuberance by Robert James Shiller. Or The Age of Fallibility and The Alchemy of Finance by George Soros

I'm not a big proponent of gold investing. I was merely making a comparison that Gold is a far better store of value than any gemstone and more liquid as well. In fact, I even pointed out how gold fell from the $2,000/ounce high to $1,200

Calling them a parasite is only offensive because it's the politically incorrect but factually correct truth. That's all... But immature?

I disagree, but you are free to think what you want.

if you think jewelers are parasite, what do you think about De Beers for monopolizing the supply of world diamond and manipulating its price?

Same thing on what I think about Jewelers.

And don't try to assume my intelligence. I have watched many documentaries, read and studied the entire diamond trade and also the DeBeers monopoly.

Wow! i am speechless
The bigger scumbags are of course the DeBeers cartel but Jewelers are not scum-free.

 

[NKOTB]

Well...a lot of the good stuff gets snatched quickly, online. I agree that many jewellers have crap selection. I laughed out loud at the mall today, at a topaz ring with a ridiculous window. I wouldn't have laughed before PS, though.

I don't agree that jewellers are any worse than many big box stores that buy stuff cheap (thanks to child labour or labour in poor conditions) and sell for a huge markup (relatively speaking, though designer stuff is ridiculous). I think many in the jewelry trade (obviously, there are bad eggs in any trade or profession) are trying to bring us nice goods, using resources they have, and make a living out of it. What about lawyers who make 460 dollars an hour? Or real estate agents, who do one open house and make 50K on the sale? Pretty sure jewellers don't actually make that much, in the end, regardless of their markup. I'm not shilling, before you make that accusation...I just think that there are also risks in the trade you don't mention. Like rough with unexpected surprises, meaning that you're literally throwing several hundred dollars into the garbage. What about the travel to the mines? Or if you're paying fair trade prices? When you say "overpriced", what are you comparing to?

I'm not crazy about blind pricing. I don't like it in housing, like in bidding wars where I live, and I'm not crazy about it in gems. But I can't disagree with a markup. While you and I might be willing to search high and low for the best bang for our buck, many aren't. They just want to walk in somewhere and buy or order something nice. And they need to pay for that service, and the end result is that we need to compete with that.

Anyway, Roger Dery has a couple of nice unheated yellow sapphires, but likely over budget. http://www.spectralgems.net/sapphire/ Worth an ask on the smaller one (though the 7.78 ct one is phenomnom), to see if you want to go for that and just do a very simple setting. A chrysoberyl would be a nice option, though - then you could spring for a really nice setting, go for a swanky dinner, and brag to everyone about how much you saved (while educating them on a gem they are unlikely to have heard of!)!

 

[NOYFB]

Um. Wow.

 

[marymm]

OP - have you seen this 2.46ct untreated Yellow Sapphire cut by Peter Torraca? I think it is gorgeous - great cut and looks to be a great lemon yellow color - plus an AGL Prestige report - all under your budget - http://www.torraca.net/projects/sapy780/

 

[minousbijoux]

OP: thanks for the post - its exactly what we've needed to liven up CS lately. I hope you find the perfect chrysoberyl.

 

[goldstein]

Well...a lot of the good stuff gets snatched quickly, online. I agree that many jewellers have crap selection. I laughed out loud at the mall today, at a topaz ring with a ridiculous window. I wouldn't have laughed before PS, though.

I don't agree that jewellers are any worse than many big box stores that buy stuff cheap (thanks to child labour or labour in poor conditions) and sell for a huge markup (relatively speaking, though designer stuff is ridiculous). I think many in the jewelry trade (obviously, there are bad eggs in any trade or profession) are trying to bring us nice goods, using resources they have, and make a living out of it. What about lawyers who make 460 dollars an hour? Or real estate agents, who do one open house and make 50K on the sale? Pretty sure jewellers don't actually make that much, in the end, regardless of their markup. I'm not shilling, before you make that accusation...I just think that there are also risks in the trade you don't mention. Like rough with unexpected surprises, meaning that you're literally throwing several hundred dollars into the garbage. What about the travel to the mines? Or if you're paying fair trade prices? When you say "overpriced", what are you comparing to?

I'm not crazy about blind pricing. I don't like it in housing, like in bidding wars where I live, and I'm not crazy about it in gems. But I can't disagree with a markup. While you and I might be willing to search high and low for the best bang for our buck, many aren't. They just want to walk in somewhere and buy or order something nice. And they need to pay for that service, and the end result is that we need to compete with that.

Anyway, Roger Dery has a couple of nice unheated yellow sapphires, but likely over budget. http://www.spectralgems.net/sapphire/ Worth an ask on the smaller one (though the 7.78 ct one is phenomnom), to see if you want to go for that and just do a very simple setting. A chrysoberyl would be a nice option, though - then you could spring for a really nice setting, go for a swanky dinner, and brag to everyone about how much you saved (while educating them on a gem they are unlikely to have heard of!)!

To be honest with you...

I think you really brought up a few great points and I think your position is far more objective than other posters and less accusatory of "trolling".

I agree with some of your points as well and you put things a little better into perspective and consideration.

Thanks for vendor suggestion. I'll look into it.

 

[goldstein]

OP - have you seen this 2.46ct untreated Yellow Sapphire cut by Peter Torraca? I think it is gorgeous - great cut and looks to be a great lemon yellow color - plus an AGL Prestige report - all under your budget - http://www.torraca.net/projects/sapy780/

Wow. Thanks a lot for that suggestion. It looks very beautiful, cut is perfect and the color is phenomenal. I'm seriously considering this one.

 

[Lisa Loves Shiny]

Chrysoberyls are extremely lovely stones and I think you will be pleasantly surprised when you purchase one. However, take your time and try to find one that has a very vibrant, neon type appearance. They are not as easy to find, but well worth the search.

 

[Niel]

Chrysoberyls are extremely lovely stones and I think you will be pleasantly surprised when you purchase one. However, take your time and try to find one that has a very vibrant, neon type appearance. They are not as easy to find, but well worth the search.

Would be particularly hard to find one that's neon with no green.

I've had one from fine water very similar to the one posted. It was like a drop of lemonade. very fresh and lovely.

 

[Lisa Loves Shiny]

I agree Niel, but when he sees one he may like a little green. I loved the one erinl posted in this thread:
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/somebodys-gotta-buy-this-stone.177156/page-2']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/somebodys-gotta-buy-this-stone.177156/page-2[/URL]

 

[iota15]

I couldn't read through all of this, and maybe this has been said.

The reason why retailers obtain the stones cheaper from wholesalers than you ever could is because of... you.

I don't say this disparagingly. What I mean is that the regular consumer, like you, requires attention, asks questions, requires education, etc. You're also shopping around and might not buy, even after a lengthy exchange. A wholesaler who decides not to sell it to regular consumers, and only retailers, avoids all the unnecessary newbie questions and time spent with a customer.

Simply, here's three stones, the specs, maybe a quick chat about any concerns with the stones - and everything else has already been mechanized. How the transaction is handled, where the stones are sent to, how the offices work together, the knowledge or trust as to a certain level of cut quality, or value to pricing ratio.

A wholesaler who does not want to deal with the public doesn't have to answer questions about whether this yellow sapphire would look better set in unplated white gold or yellow gold, or whether this inclusion is an integrity risk. They don't need to develop the trust and rapport like you would have to with a regular consumer, as they've been working together for a long time over a number of transactions already. There's no shopping around, no "let's just see what your prices are first". The parties already know who chooses better stones but is higher priced, who sells value, treated gems that sell quickly.

That speed of the transactions, along with the obvious bulk nature of their transactions, allows the wholesaler to sell it to the retailer at a lower price. It's not a "discount" per se, but a price determined by the wholesaler/retailer market that benefits both them both in different ways. You don't have that advantage because you don't have that reputation, or that level of trust built over many years, and also of course, you don't buy in bulk - you only need one stone and may never need another yellow sapphire again.

 

[goldstein]

I couldn't read through all of this, and maybe this has been said.

The reason why retailers obtain the stones cheaper from wholesalers than you ever could is because of... you.

I don't say this disparagingly. What I mean is that the regular consumer, like you, requires attention, asks questions, requires education, etc. You're also shopping around and might not buy, even after a lengthy exchange. A wholesaler who decides not to sell it to regular consumers, and only retailers, avoids all the unnecessary newbie questions and time spent with a customer.

Simply, here's three stones, the specs, maybe a quick chat about any concerns with the stones - and everything else has already been mechanized. How the transaction is handled, where the stones are sent to, how the offices work together, the knowledge or trust as to a certain level of cut quality, or value to pricing ratio.

A wholesaler who does not want to deal with the public doesn't have to answer questions about whether this yellow sapphire would look better set in unplated white gold or yellow gold, or whether this inclusion is an integrity risk. They don't need to develop the trust and rapport like you would have to with a regular consumer, as they've been working together for a long time over a number of transactions already. There's no shopping around, no "let's just see what your prices are first". The parties already know who chooses better stones but is higher priced, who sells value, treated gems that sell quickly.

That speed of the transactions, along with the obvious bulk nature of their transactions, allows the wholesaler to sell it to the retailer at a lower price. It's not a "discount" per se, but a price determined by the wholesaler/retailer market that benefits both them both in different ways. You don't have that advantage because you don't have that reputation, or that level of trust built over many years, and also of course, you don't buy in bulk - you only need one stone and may never need another yellow sapphire again.

Retail brick and mortar service is dead in business.

All information related to gemstones can be sought on google, the internet and several jewelry and gemologist forums.

The information is automated and even a novice - if they take their time, research, educated and become informed - they do not need a jeweler to hold them by the hand.

It doesn't take a genius; if you are willing to put in some time to inform and educate yourself well with free resources. Why pay a Jeweler a ridiculous 200%-500% commission?

"ohh but they give advice and opinions on what stone looks better with what set" - You can get that for free from your friends and people you know, along with the internet and researching fashions trends for free.

Why pay a Jeweler ridiculous markups for unspecialized fashion advice based on trends which you can easily search?

"avoids all the unnecessary newbie questions and time spent with a customer. " That doesn't justify a Jeweler's ridiculous markup of up to 2 to 5 times what they bought it for.

What makes this markup more ridiculous is that they don't even own the damn stone. All they do is buy it on your behalf and add-in up to 2 to 5 times the original price.

Jewelers are largely just an unnecessary middle-man and parasites who bring no value to consumers.

Moreover; it will not make wholesalers unprofitable even if they do have to answers to consumers. And Jewelers by the way, are not all geologists or even know too much about gemstones as well - yet they receive exclusive access for what?

Your point is mute altogether.

"That speed of the transactions, along with the obvious bulk nature of their transactions, allows the wholesaler to sell it to the retailer at a lower price. "

The speed of the transactions are the same. And it has no bulk nature because Jewelers carry low-inventory and do not buy a stone until a customers orders it.

Jewelers can't carry high-inventory or buy in bulk because their business is inefficient, have nothing of value to offer and just want to collect a commission for buying on your behalf.

"You don't have that advantage because you don't have that reputation" - The merchant is the one being give cold-hard cash for their merchandise. The customer doesn't need a reputation as long as the merchant collects the cash first before handing the merchandise and if paid by credit card or check - they just need to make sure it's a legitimate authorized charge on the card and make sure the checks clears and is not forged.

"also of course, you don't buy in bulk " - Neither do Jewelers. Buying one stone at a time and not regularly since inventory is slow to move in this business; does not count as buying in bulk. Retail Jewelers have a business model based upon drop-shipping; which is frowned upon in many other industries and especially by merchant account providers who process credit/debit card payments who pretty much all ban drop shipping.

" you only need one stone and may never need another yellow sapphire again." - Completely untrue. Stones can be lost, stolen, damaged and simply pawned if they are an engagement ring with a heartbreak story.

That's like saying you only need one house and many never need another house again. Houses can burn to ground, be destroyed by natural disasters or simply be sold for many reasons.

 

[canuk-gal]

HI:

If your relatives are in the trade, can you not ask them for help?

 

[goldstein]

HI:

If your relatives are in the trade, can you not ask them for help?

No. They are in Israel.

 

[T L]

Goldstein,
I think what you said goes for anything. If you take time to educate yourself, search around, and if you have patience, you can find great prices on a myriad of items like televisions to toasters, cars to catering, sofas to sapphires. I had a friend that joined a club that gets you wholesale pricing on a wide variety of household items, and she paid a huge premium for that membership. She finally quit her membership when she realized I was getting better values than she did because I took my time to research and educate myself. That being said, some gems will always be expensive unless you get fabulously lucky (like buying from an uninformed seller). Fine, large and untreated padparadscha is such an example. They're just a super rare item made in nature, and there's only so many of them.

Jewelers charge more because there's more middlemen and they have to make a profit, short and simple, and demand also plays a role as well.

 

[kenny]

The reason why retailers obtain the stones cheaper from wholesalers than you ever could is because of... you.

Wrong.
Well not fully wrong ... yes, retailers have to hand-hold the annoying public while wholesalers deal with pros.

The reason retailers can buy at wholesale prices is they are legit retail businesses.
That's how our system works.
I don't fly to Africa to buy cacao beans.
Others do that ... and guess what ... those evil selfish scumbags expect to be paid for the value they add to a product I ultimately consume, chocolate.

Retailers have to pay for their businesses' operating expenses, then they have to earn enough to pay for LIFE ... food, rent, mortgage, health insurance, clothing, car, beer, toilet paper, Preparation-H, utilities for themselves and (shutter) their families, and some of the really evil, selfish, arrogant, miserly scumbags want to send their kids to college some day.
Imagine anyone being so evil and selfish!

They can't sh!t money so they earn it by the work they do for you and are paid with the mark up from wholesale to retail price.
But clearly the OP is so special that he/she should be free to eliminate their income by posing as a wholesaler.

What evil viscous exploitive money-grubbing monsters jewelry retailers are!
But the OP is special.
Clearly he/she deserve the best of everything CHEAP!

Perhaps the OP was a trust-fund baby and doesn't understand the value of working at a job for a living.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhfpBW-nUWk&spfreload=10

 

[Euphony]

I have two points of clarification then I am out because I don't have any illusions that I can sway the original poster, but there are other people reading this thread.

You say that jewellers don't buy in high enough quantity to warrant wholesale. That isn't true. They might not buy it upfront, but over the course of a year they may purchase hundreds of stones from those wholesalers whereas you would only be purchasing one. A successful jeweller, even a relatively small operation, will move tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Why would a wholesaler want to deal with hundreds of people buying one stone a piece when they could deal with one retailer buying hundreds of stones?

The second point that needs to be made is that wholesalers do not want to deal with the general public for security reasons. The gem trade is dangerous. The jewellers assume the risk (not to mention the hassle) of dealing directly with the public. It would be incredibly dangerous to allow members of the general public into a wholesalers place of business where millions of dollars worth of gemstones are being passed around. Many won't even sell to jewellers they don't know without industry references.

ETA: It is not industry practice to mark up x5. I don't know where you are getting that from. A jeweller's margins are actually pretty thin. That's why so many have struggled with the recession.

 

[goldstein]

Goldstein,
I think what you said goes for anything. If you take time to educate yourself, search around, and if you have patience, you can find great prices on a myriad of items like televisions to toasters, cars to catering, sofas to sapphires. I had a friend that joined a club that gets you wholesale pricing on a wide variety of household items, and she paid a huge premium for that membership. She finally quit her membership when she realized I was getting better values than she did because I took my time to research and educate myself. That being said, some gems will always be expensive unless you get fabulously lucky (like buying from an uninformed seller). Fine, large and untreated padparadscha is such an example. They're just a super rare item made in nature, and there's only so many of them.

Jewelers charge more because there's more middlemen.

They are a unnecessary middleman is the point I'm trying to make. Not whether or not they need to make a profit.

But I think you brought up a good point. Patience pays dividends especially when you take your time with any expensive purchases.

 

[goldstein]

The reason why retailers obtain the stones cheaper from wholesalers than you ever could is because of... you.

The reason retailers can buy at wholesale prices is they are legit retail businesses.

Retailers have to pay for their businesses' operating expenses, then they have to earn enough to pay for LIFE ... food, rent, mortgage, health insurance, clothing, car, beer, toilet paper, Preparation-H, utilities for themselves and (shutter) their families, and some of the really evil, selfish, arrogant, miserly scumbags want to send their kids to college some day.

They can't sh!t money so they earn it by the work they do for you and are paid with the mark up from wholesale to retail price.

Clearly he/she deserve the best of everything CHEAP!

Jewelers are the biggest cheapskates. They don't even want to pay you 20% off wholesale for your stuff. Yet they are very happy to sell to you on a disgustingly high mark-up and sometimes don't even negotiate at all.

Therefore, they do not deserve the same courtesy from customers who purchase from them.

White-collar criminals also need to pay for their operating expenses, feed their families and send their kids to college; that doesn't mean others people are obligated or liable for that.

Plenty of people do without college or pay for it themselves without parental support. Cry me a river...

The reason why Jewelers can only buy at wholesale is because it is a colluded marketplace.

 

[wordie89]

Thanks Euphony, for that info. You live up to your name! Good luck to Op who has gotten some thoughtful suggestions.

 

[goldstein]

They might not buy it upfront. A successful jeweller, even a relatively small operation, will move tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Why would a wholesaler want to deal with hundreds of people buying one stone a piece when they could deal with one retailer buying hundreds of stones?

The second point that needs to be made is that wholesalers do not want to deal with the general public for security reasons. The gem trade is dangerous. The jewellers assume the risk (not to mention the hassle) of dealing directly with the public. It would be incredibly dangerous to allow members of the general public into a wholesalers place of business where millions of dollars worth of gemstones are being passed around. Many won't even sell to jewellers they don't know without industry references.

ETA: It is not industry practice to mark up x5. I don't know where you are getting that from. A jeweller's margins are actually pretty thin. That's why so many have struggled with the recession.

Them not buying it upfront is exactly the problem I have with Jewelers. They order it on your behalf and than charge a commission in reality.

When you go to Walmart, everything is already stocked and owned by Walmart, not their suppliers. You are buying from them LONG after they took ownership of it - they are not a third-party agent buying on the behalf of a customer and charging 2-5 times the original price.

The Jeweler never takes ownership of the merchandise - because as soon as you order, they order to fulfill it. They are just salespeople and agents working on your behalf towards the actual seller - the wholesalers.

The 5X markup was for high-end designer brand jewelers like Tiffanys & Cartier. (I know they own their own mines)...

Sometimes the mark-up can 50%, sometimes just double. But 3X markup is not unheard of it at all and can go as high as 5X.

Many Jewelers switch gemstones upon setting. Not all but plenty enough to not trust them ever fully. They give inaccurate appraisals to uneducated customers to misrepresent the value.

wholesalers do not want to deal with the general public for security reasons. - Anything dealing with very valuable merchandise will attract thieves and crooks. That's just the nature of the business.

If robbers and thieves want to target wholesalers... with enough planning, they can and nothing will stop them except law enforcement which can sometimes fail.

But yes, you are right on that point.

The gem trade is very dangerous and you are guaranteed to be robbed unless you are right next to a police station. In which case, you'd have some pretty dumb crooks...

 

[Dancing Fire]

So this is where the action is?..I must visit the CS forum more often...

 

[FrekeChild]

Good grief.
Hi DF! Fancy seeing you 'round these parts!

 

[mochiko42]

Well... I am not in the jewelry trade so can't comment about their practices, but I'm not sure if the reference to Walmart and retailers, etc. is entirely valid. I have part ownership in a F&B distribution / supply business and I can tell you that some retailers do not shoulder the burden for their entire inventory either. As far as I know, Walmart and many other retailers uses a VMI (vendor managed inventory model) with consignment, placing more of the burden/risk with the supplier as the supplier usually has to buy back any stock that fails to sell within a specified period.

I doubt this would change OP's opinion on this matter since it seems his/her mind was already made up before the first post, but just wanted to provide some additional information since the example of Walmart was brought up as a comparison to the jewelry trade.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2014/09/09/why-are-wal-marts-margins-gradually-declining/
http://www.fool.com/investing/value/2014/02/10/why-wal-mart-and-costco-will-thrive-in-the-retai-2.aspx

 

[Edward Bristol]

I think what you are maybe are missing is the much of the retail stone business is on memo. Jewelers can't carry a large inventory of stones, it's too expensive. So when you go back to the store you bought your stone from, they really can't afford to buy it back, even at a wholesale price. So they will offer you a very low price. Normally when you go to your local jeweler looking for a stone, he will have you come back in a few days. What he then does is have a number of stones sent to him on memo to show you. He only pays for the stone once you buy it, the others are sent back. Or what they have in stock, some of it may be on memo. When I lived in Buffalo, I had 3 or 4 stores that I would leave anywhere from 6 to 20 stones with on memo. These would would display or show to customers, and once sold, I would get paid.
It's a strange business, but we are dealing with items that often take a long time to sell, and cost quite a bit, so it's different than more common consumer goods. The store has overhead, and the owner also needs to make some profit.

Yes, if somebody has 10 stones for sale as a side business or hobby the margin does not matter much. It is like a garage sale online.

A professional company with 1000 gems online has several millions in $ value sitting there, waiting. This is necessary so that people can actually find what they search but it is expensive for the seller.

Unless you buy dozens of stones at one time it is RETAIL at retail prices. Totally normal.

 

[Euphony]

wholesalers do not want to deal with the general public for security reasons. - Anything dealing with very valuable merchandise will attract thieves and crooks. That's just the nature of the business.

If robbers and thieves want to target wholesalers... with enough planning, they can and nothing will stop them except law enforcement which can sometimes fail.

But yes, you are right on that point.

The gem trade is very dangerous and you are guaranteed to be robbed unless you are right next to a police station. In which case, you'd have some pretty dumb crooks...

I can't resist one point of clarification about the security risk: if you walk into a wholesalers office there are gemstones being sorted everywhere. They will not buzz you in if they don't know your face. If I walk in to pick up some sapphires they will pull out a tray, place it in front of me so that I can look for ones that match my clients criteria, and then turn back around to sift through the vault for more options. They can do that because they trust me. We have a relationship in place, and a dishonest jeweller does not survive in the industry because trust is everything in our profession.

When I say dealing with the general public is a risk wholesalers don't want to take, I am speaking both to the fact that they don't want to open themselves up to potential robberies and to the ease with which someone could pocket something on a sudden whim. It is the jeweller that assumes that risk instead, and they have to pay for any stones that get lifted or damaged while in their possession. If the wholesalers assumed that risk, they would raise the price of their goods to compensate.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Another thing you may not be thinking of, is that these "cheapskate" jewelers, are covering the cost of shipping the stones in for you to look at, and also sending the ones or all of them back. Then if you select a stone, and during the setting process something goes wrong and the stone is damaged, you are still not paying anything.

I think a 5x mark up is not found very often in retail stones, unless maybe you are talking about very small stones that cost just around 1 dollar.

Goldstein, are you sure you don't have these jewelers confused with lawyers?