Why I don't trust most gemologists

[T L]

I can't believe he said this was worth what it was worth. How does he know it's not dyed, and it's practically opaque!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8MX-82kNSQ

 

[Lovinggems]

That thing is ugly. Looks like low beading grade material.

 

[Michael_E]

You're probably not going to believe this but he is probably pretty close in his estimate of what that stone could bring in an auction environment. It's a sapphire with an even, pleasing color. It's huge and in the right kind of auction with the sort of excitement that is generated in that sort of venue, it could probably bring $2500. You and most of the others here wouldn't buy it, but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't bring that in the right place. You'll notice that he didn't say it was worth that and that he was hedging his estimate by saying that it would take a "special" buyer. To me that means someone who doesn't know much, has a lot of money and would view this as a trinket. Goofy, but I've seen this many times up close and personal and it just leaves me shaking my head and walking away laughing. It doesn't mean the gemologist is untrustworthy or inaccurate.

 

[JewelFreak]

Hard to believe anyone would pay that for it -- or buy it at all. Guess there is a sucker born every minute! The cut is pretty bad, it's shallow & opaque. Yuck.

--- Laurie

 

[chrono]

Micheal,
What you say makes sense but it doesn't leave me laughing; I feel sorry for the poor guy who overpaid thinking he got a great deal on a "gorgeous" sapphire.

 

[Pandora II]

Sapphire truly icky but I could see quite a few people buying it as the colour's nice and it's BIG!

In defence of gemmologists, they're qualified as the ID guys not the Value guys. Some are both, but you can be a fine gemmologist and not have a clue about market values. I didn't see anything here that would say he was a bad gemmologist - although his gem-kit bag was HUGE. What has he got in there??? Okay so the polariscope was about 10 times the size of mine, but unless he's got a microscope and a full size OPL teaching spectroscope in there too, I'm guessing it's his lunch!

 

[lelser]

I'm with Michael. It's the sort of piece that would not move in a store, but the gemologist was careful to say "at auction" and there are people who love those antique looking cuts. I had someone ask me to buy her some non-glass treated rubies like that last year at Tucson. When she finished the pieces they looked great - hammered gold, opaque rose cuts and big rose cut semi-opaque rubies. It's not everyone's taste, but that seemed to have good blue, and it was a honker. Some folks could easily get worked up for it in an auction and that's really all you need.

Cheers,

Lisa
www.lisaelser.com

 

[T L]

Sapphire truly icky but I could see quite a few people buying it as the colour's nice and it's BIG!

In defence of gemmologists, they're qualified as the ID guys not the Value guys. Some are both, but you can be a fine gemmologist and not have a clue about market values. I didn't see anything here that would say he was a bad gemmologist - although his gem-kit bag was HUGE. What has he got in there??? Okay so the polariscope was about 10 times the size of mine, but unless he's got a microscope and a full size OPL teaching spectroscope in there too, I'm guessing it's his lunch!

Unless he could tell it was unheated, I would guess that stone was dyed blue. That's why I took issue with his skills. I saw no mention from him of treatment. In his defense, maybe they edited that part out.

 

[Michael_E]

Micheal,
What you say makes sense but it doesn't leave me laughing; I feel sorry for the poor guy who overpaid thinking he got a great deal on a "gorgeous" sapphire.

Those video clips never mention if the items actually sold or for what price, so I wonder if there is any poor guy to feel sorry for. This is an interesting comment though. I feel the same way about the poor guy's who buy old stamps, coins and even mineral specimens for what seem to me to be outrageous sums, (not to mention the people who buy potatoes shaped like the Virgin Mary on E-Bay). Something is worth whatever people are willing to pay and coming up with "appraised values" is MUCH easier than finding someone who'll agree and fork over the money. I kind of doubt that the sapphire shown actually sold for the off the cuff "appraisal" that was provided, but who knows.

 

[stci]

I know nothing about precious gem but I know I would never have bought this stone cause it ugly!

I think, just the size might impress me.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi All,

I watched that episode and it did sell. As I recall it was near that price.

I think what we are seeing is just the way business is done in the gem & jewelry trade. In higher value auctions the gems usally do come with lab reports,(from the seller) but this is a smaller auction house that is doing the work for the seller. We on this site have become so cautious, we now will buy very little without a lab report. I don't really know whether this is good or bad. It certainly has taken the fun out of buying gemstones for me.

Yesterday morning i woke up with this thought after Frekes thread on the Blue Spinel. There are fashion models who's beauty we admire, but they are only somebodies ideal someone. The real live women who have defects , but are also beautiful, are what most of us want and will have and be contended with. Most of us want a pretty gem that is not so costly to impair our standard of living.
For me, too much attention is going to the bestest gem. For some that is fine, but for the rest of us we want nice looking gems for the money. I think it is good to appreciate the gems that are less than the best. I think it is good to know what the best is, but not to always aspire to it. Look what happens to women who always want to remake themselves to be like those illusive photos.

Just a thought.

Annette

ps. Tl, I think you are maybe the colored stones most important asset, so do not take this personally, because I value you, but wanted to give my take on some of these discussions.

 

[T L]

Hi All,

I watched that episode and it did sell. As I recall it was near that price.

I think what we are seeing is just the way business is done in the gem & jewelry trade. In higher value auctions the gems usally do come with lab reports,(from the seller) but this is a smaller auction house that is doing the work for the seller. We on this site have become so cautious, we now will buy very little without a lab report. I don't really know whether this is good or bad. It certainly has taken the fun out of buying gemstones for me.

Yesterday morning i woke up with this thought after Frekes thread on the Blue Spinel. There are fashion models who's beauty we admire, but they are only somebodies ideal someone. The real live women who have defects , but are also beautiful, are what most of us want and will have and be contended with. Most of us want a pretty gem that is not so costly to impair our standard of living.
For me, too much attention is going to the bestest gem. For some that is fine, but for the rest of us we want nice looking gems for the money. I think it is good to appreciate the gems that are less than the best. I think it is good to know what the best is, but not to always aspire to it. Look what happens to women who always want to remake themselves to be like those illusive photos.

Just a thought.

Annette

ps. Tl, I think you are maybe the colored stones most important asset, so do not take this personally, because I value you, but wanted to give my take on some of these discussions.

Smithcompton, I really am not. Everyone here is a great asset to colored stones, and there are people here that are much more informed and better than I am in regards to evaluating and judging colored stones. I enjoy having discussions about my favorite hobby here because I can't find anyone in the real world like my fellow colored stoners. I just love sharing my enthusiasm with people who are just as enthusiastic, and if I can learn something, or others can learn, then all the better. If I do make a big deal about modifiers and that sort of thing, it's only because I'm trying to help people train their eye like I did over the past 20 years of collecting. As always, no, you don't have to buy the best of the best. Many of us cannot afford the best, but I personally want to see people get the best for what they can afford, and if I think something is overpriced, a fair price, or too low a price, I'll say so if asked. Others are free to disagree with me, and truth be told, I enjoy a lively debate. All of us can learn from the process and come to our conclusions.

 

[Richard M.]

I kind of doubt that the sapphire shown actually sold for the off the cuff "appraisal" that was provided, but who knows.

I happened to see that program. It sold near the seller's desired price of around $800. I agree that someone might have paid as much as $2,500 for it under certain circumstances.

Pandora's right that most gemologists are trained to identify gems, not appraise them. In fact freshly-minted GGs know virtually nothing about the real gem market unless they're members of a gem-dealing family or have direct experience. Appraisal is a very complex process involving a lot of training and experience. Even then it's largely hit or miss. Gems aren't fungible and sometimes it's impossible to find "comparables" for all levels of the market. A gem -- or a car, a house, an old candy wrapper (yes, they're collected), or anything else -- is "worth" exactly what someone will voluntarily pay for it and the seller will voluntarily accept.

There's a market for big, ugly pocket-rippers like that sapphire. Sellers of such items generally operate on the "greater fool theory." Knowing they paid too much, they hope they can find a greater fool than themselves to bail them out.

 

[kenny]

If I may . . . I think there are two markets the informed market and the uninformed market.

I see this in Steinway pianos.
An old pro will give you perhaps $7000 for a certain old Steinway grand because they know how much money must be invested into it to get it up to snuff as a well-functioning musical instrument.
But because of Steinway's mystique and brilliant marketing there are plenty of uninformed people who will give you $17,000 for the exact same piano in the exact same condition.

This is a problem if an owner wants to know what the piano's value is.
It truly has two legitimate values.

 

[Treenbean]

It looks like the sapphires from Gene's Tucson post. It's not my cup of tea.

Smitcompton: You really hit the nail on the head for me. I love gems but I am fairly new to the gem world. I don't have any super duper expensive gems, but what I have a really like and think are better than what you get at most B & M stores.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi Again,

I just want to tell this little story. A few yrs back, I had some home repairs that were needed. I knew a fellow that I had lost contact with who was really a handy guy and could do the repairs. I called him and he agreed to do the work. As we chatted, I told him I had this new interest in gems , and his reply was, "Oh, then I want to be paid in rubies" I just laughed, but then decided to buy a couple of 5 ct rubies(opaque) to pay him with. You couldn't have seen a happier fellow. Of course i gave him a check as well. I heard after, he went to an organization meeting and told everyone he was paid in rubies. That was fun. Just a passing pleasantry!


Annette

 

[LD]

Hang on a minute - isn't anybody in the least bit worried that he based one of his assumptions that this was a natural sapphire on the fact that it was poorly cut and "nobody would cut a synthetic like this"? He's probably right but it's a huge assumption.

It's a very ugly, cloudy, badly cut sapphire and so if somebody wasn't into gems and wanted a big showy necklace (for example) I can see how they might be tempted. For us gem anoraks however, we would need to know what treatments and the level of treatments had been applied.

One man's milk is another man's champagne!

 

[T L]

Hang on a minute - isn't anybody in the least bit worried that he based one of his assumptions that this was a natural sapphire on the fact that it was poorly cut and "nobody would cut a synthetic like this"? He's probably right but it's a huge assumption.

LD,
You are correct, and actually many synthetics are cut shoddily or less than perfect, to make them look more like a natural stone. No one should ever assume that because you don't see a perfect cut on a stone, it's not synthetic. Remember the first padparadscha that Tgal obtained, it was a native cut. After it was sent to the lab, it was deemed synthetic.

 

[T L]

If I may . . . I think there are two markets the informed market and the uninformed market.

I see this in Steinway pianos.
An old pro will give you perhaps $7000 for a certain old Steinway grand because they know how much money must be invested into it to get it up to snuff as a well-functioning musical instrument.
But because of Steinway's mystique and brilliant marketing there are plenty of uninformed people who will give you $17,000 for the exact same piano in the exact same condition.

This is a problem if an owner wants to know what the piano's value is.
It truly has two legitimate values.

True, and other people pay a lot because there's a famous name attributed to the item, like Tiffany &Co., although you could have the same duplicate item made for much less from another retailer.