What kind of stone might this be?

[lilmosun]

Hi -- new member who has often seen this site come up when searching for information...so thought I would give a shot.

My jeweler bought a ring off a customer. She had the original invoice which said it was a 3.48 carat Paraiba tourmaline from Brazil.

I have a ring with small Paraiba stones. Compared side-by-side, the smaller stones are more electric but this is beautiful nonetheless. Also, I thought Brazilian Paraibas were seldom over a carat. Since he doesn't know much about Paraiba stones, he said he would sell it to me at slightly over his cost. Otherwise, he would need to send it out for appraisal, etc.

I told him I would take it because it is a beautiful ring - the price would be reasonable for any tourmaline even if not a paraiba. But I am hoping its not some inexpensive look alike. I trust my jeweler but he admits that he didn't want to pay much because he doesn't know much about these stones.

Thoughts as to what it might be?

 

[T L]

Re: Opinions?

It's hard to tell from a photo, but it could be apatite too. If you're paying a small sum for it, then I wouldn't be too worried if it was an African tourmaline as well. I would check if it was apatite vs. tourmaline though. Apaite tends to be fairly soft, and can have a waxy luster.

 

[lilmosun]

Thanks TL.

I am worried it might be apatite..but my jeweler said it wasn't that soft and is convinced it was a tourmaline of some sort. No waxy luster- very brilliant - he let me take it outside in the sunlight to take a closer look and see more of the blues (I forgot to check it in the lower light for the glow). Is there any other way to tell outside of sending it out to be appraised (how much would an appraisal cost?).

Here's an enlarged picture

 

[T L]

Unfortunately, some apatite can be a dead ringer for tourmaline, especially to the untrained eye. If it's polished well, apatite can be really tourmaline-like. Both are low RI stones as well, and singly refractive. You may have to have a gemologist do a test on it to make sure what it is. It could also be a synthetic or a simulated stone made or coated to look like tourmaline.

Apatite is a very beautiful gem in its own right, so I hope no one thinks I'm putting down apatite. It's just far less expensive than tourmaline in the same hue and saturation.

Good luck.

 

[lilmosun]

Thanks...I was worried because it wasn't as electric as my Paraibas from Brazil (see below).

I didn't pay a lot for it given the setting is 18K but I didn't really need to buy another ring either.

 

[JewelFreak]

Wow, the little ones in your ring really glow, even in a photo. Super. The ring you just bought could be apatite or tourmaline but not Paraiba type. Either way, it's a nice color & pretty ring. As TL says, a gemologist should be able to tell you. You are right that Brazilian Paraibas tend to be small -- the vein itself is (was) about the thickness of a pencil. If you really care, AGL will do a Gem Brief that identifies the type of stone it is, but for origin you'd have to go for a Prestige Report, which is more expensive. I'm not sure if they'll do it while the ring is set -- I don't think so, but others can give you more info, and prices.

If it were mine, I'd like to know what the stone is so I'd know how to care for it, but since the price was good, wouldn't care about origin.

 

[chrono]

Any gemmologist with a refractometer to test the RI? That should settle the apatite vs tourmaline question.

 

[Marlow]

Unfortunately RI of Apatite and Tourmaline overlap a bit - the best are some measurements ( table and facet on the pavillion) to get more results - then you have the birefrigence and tourmaline is higher. A set stone....could be tricky...


THIS IS NOT SERIOUS!!!!

Take feldspar and scratch the table facet - then you know it.....

DON'T DO THIS!!!!!!!!!

 

[chrono]

Yes, there is some overlap, but with a loupe to check for any doubling of facet reflections, I think an experienced gemmologist can tell the difference. I agree that the stone has to be unset first though.

RI Apatite: 1.634 - 1.638 with very low birefringence: .004
RI Tourmaline:1.620 - 1.640 with very high birefringence: .020

The birefringence will be a diagnostic separation. A polarizing filter on the refractometer will be helpful. The higher the birefringence, the more one can see doubling of the facets and inclusions with magnification.

 

[Marlow]

I have for apatite:

n(e) 1,628-1,656 and n(o) 1,632-1,662 - depends on F,Cl and OH content.

But you are right - normally no problem if unset and two measument should be enough - so we need no feldspar!!

 

[lilmosun]

Thanks all. It sounds like its not a paraiba and so I am afraid that someone went out of their way to falsify the papers. While I only paid $2K, it is too much for an apatite. And if someone was going to fake papers, they wouldn't go to the effort to put a real tourmaline in it for the price I paid. I may get it appraised as I am sure he will take it back if it isn't a tourmaline.

I love my ring with the smaller stones and now appreciate it even more

 

[Marlow]

Hey,

nobody here said it is an apatite - it could be an apatite or a tourmaline ( cuprian or not).

2K with more then 3 ct eyeclean - def. not a Paraiba from Brazil otherwise it would be a perfect deal.

It could also a cuprian tourmaline from Mozambique - the price would be o.k. - or an elbaite ( is tourmaline) from Afghanistan.
Again the price would be o.k.! In my opinion.

Nobody here is able to tell you what it is after looking to some pics.

 

[chrono]

I'm sorry we got carried away. The gist of it is that none of us know what it is. We can guess all we want from the photographs you provided, but unless we handle the stones ourselves (preferably with refractometer), all we have are guesses. At this point, it could be apatite or tourmaline. Even if tourmaline, based on the size and colour, it is highly unlikely to be Brazilian. It is better to send it to a lab (GIA and AGL accept mounted stones for an added fee) rather than an appraiser, who may not be as familiar with coloured stones, especially if you are concerned about treatment (some are now clarity enhanced) and origin.

 

[lilmosun]

What you all are saying is what I wanted/needed to hear and confirms my gut when I saw the ring. I passed on it at first but it was so pretty. I figured that given the setting was 18kt (confirmed) that I could take the risk.

I called my jeweler today (he was just holding it for me as I needed to come back to get it sized - he does it for free). He had said he would to have it certified but if came back as a Paraiba, he would find it impossible to sell it to me for the same price. Doesn't sound like there is much risk that it will.

I may buy it under the condition that I can return it if its not a tourmaline. I went to the AGL site and it seems like I can at least determine that its a tourmaline by simply getting a gem brief and they will do it for a mounted stone for $75.

But then I remind myself that I already have a real Brazilian Paraiba ring...so maybe I should just move onto something totally different

 

[T L]

What you all are saying is what I wanted/needed to hear and confirms my gut when I saw the ring. I passed on it at first but it was so pretty. I figured that given the setting was 18kt (confirmed) that I could take the risk.

I called my jeweler today (he was just holding it for me as I needed to come back to get it sized - he does it for free). He had said he would to have it certified but if came back as a Paraiba, he would find it impossible to sell it to me for the same price. Doesn't sound like there is much risk that it will.

I may buy it under the condition that I can return it if its not a tourmaline. I went to the AGL site and it seems like I can at least determine that its a tourmaline by simply getting a gem brief and they will do it for a mounted stone for $75.

But then I remind myself that I already have a real Brazilian Paraiba ring...so maybe I should just move onto something totally different

It really doesn't have that intense neon color, so he's going to overprice it based on its marketing name???

Even if it does come back as a "paraiba," it really isn't a valuable one. The color just isn't as intense.

 

[lilmosun]

Do you think my ring with the little Brazilian Pariaba stones is worth more than the larger one (assuming its a copper bearing tourmaline )?

I bought it in the wholesale section of the Intergem show from one of the regular vendors. It immediately got my attention (reminded me of the Caribbean) but I passed because it seemed high given there was no large center stone. But I never found another ring with stones that came close to it and kept going back to it. Several shows later, one that was particularly slow, he finally came down to what I was willing to pay.

Sorry for being so ignorant - I know nothing about these stones except I love the color and how they just glow

 

[Marlow]

@ TL:

She paid 2000$ for he ring - I was told that the material is around 30-40% of the final price - would mean arond 600-800$

The gem is 3,48 ct. Looks eyeclean.

A brazilan Paraiba - imo impossible to get even in a "lower" quality of the color - the clarity would be fantastic for this location.

Mozambique " Paraiba" - 3,48ct for 600-800$ - would be cheap aswell as a tourmaline from Afghanistan in this size...?

What do you think?

The gem is beautiful.

 

[T L]

@ TL:

She paid 2000$ for he ring - I was told that the material is around 30-40% of the final price - would mean arond 600-800$

The gem is 3,48 ct. Looks eyeclean.

A brazilan Paraiba - imo impossible to get even in a "lower" quality of the color - the clarity would be fantastic for this location.

Mozambique " Paraiba" - 3,48ct for 600-800$ - would be cheap aswell as a tourmaline from Afghanistan in this size...?

What do you think?

The gem is beautiful.

I think that's a fair price. I just think that he shouldn't overprice it if it comes back with the magical "paraiba" marketing name.

It is a very pretty gem despite the lack of that neon glow. However, it is the neon glow that makes for a much larger price.

 

[lilmosun]

I appreciate the education and kindness. You just validated my initial reaction when I saw the ring and why I passed on it at first...it paled compared to the stones I had. I started second guessing myself and figured given the price, I didn't have much to lose. Wish I new of this wonderful site before I bought all my other jewelry

Can I ask your opinion about the original ring with the smaller stones? I know you can't tell for sure from a picture, but is it reasonable to think these are actual Pariaba's from Brazil? If so, what do smaller stones like these go for? Are they easy to come by in this size/quality?

To be honest, I've never seen anything in person like the stones in my original ring and that was what started my hunt for Paraibas which I quickly learned were outside my budget. I didn't care for the ring setting but the stones just jumped out despite being surrounded by rings with other larger precious gemstones. Reminded me of the dramatic changes in color found in the Caribbean. I had to ask if they were real. The price for a 14k gold ring with small stones was more than I expected from a well-known wholesale dealer at the Intergem show. I was told it was because they were Pariabas from Brazil that he bought 15-20 years ago. Not knowing anything about them, I passed. Then I looked everywhere for another ring with stones like it...without luck (except the internet which I didn't trust). Some showed me similar colored stones but nothing that gave me the same emotional reaction. So many shows later, I bought it. The only thing that bothered me was if it was so rare, why no one else bought it (he said it was because most people don't know what they are which made sense as many jewelers I asked didn't seem to know about them).

I've tried to take photos but none of them do it justice - they just look washed out and don't scream like they do in person. Below is a macro zoomed picture I took outdoors (overcast today) that shows more detail (to a fault ) but not the glow. Oddly enough, I can't seem to get a picture that really shows the stones off the way they look. The previous picture above was by a lamp in an otherwise dark room...my camera is just a point n shoot (not good at low light settings). In some pictures I haven't posted, the stones look completely green (they are definitely more blue)

I know these pale compared to the stones most of you must have...but would like your opinions (and don't worry about my feelings).

 

[PrecisionGem]

I don't think the stone is apatite. From the picture 2 distinct colors are shown along each axis. You won't see this this with apatite, not with the eye you would need a dichroscope, and then it would be week. Looks much more like tourmaline. For there record, both are DR not SR.

 

[PrecisionGem]

I don't think the stone is apatite. From the picture 2 distinct colors are shown along each axis. You won't see this this with apatite, not with the eye you would need a dichroscope, and then it would be week. Looks much more like tourmaline. For there record, both are DR not SR.

 

[T L]

Can I ask your opinion about the original ring with the smaller stones? I know you can't tell for sure from a picture, but is it reasonable to think these are actual Pariaba's from Brazil? If so, what do smaller stones like these go for? Are they easy to come by in this size/quality?

The only way to know for sure is to send your ring out for an origin report, preferably AGL. There are very neon African stones as well, but the mines seem to no longer be producing them.

Gene,
Thanks for correcting me on the DR vs. SR on tourmaline. I spoke too soon, as tourmaline, at least to me, isn't obviously DR, like sphene or zircon for example.

 

[lilmosun]

Well, good to know. I don't think it is worth the cost of a country of origin report as I am not looking to sell and I already own it.

Would small stones like this be valued at least the cost of near colorless VS1/VS2 diamonds of the same size whether they were from Africa or Brazil? Its hard to tell on the internet where everyone just talks about the price of the larger stones (and ebay seems to be filled with unreliable claims).

 

[T L]

Well, good to know. I don't think it is worth the cost of a country of origin report as I am not looking to sell and I already own it.

Would small stones like this be valued at least the cost of near colorless VS1/VS2 diamonds of the same size whether they were from Africa or Brazil? Its hard to tell on the internet where everyone just talks about the price of the larger stones (and ebay seems to be filled with unreliable claims).

It's hard to say, because as you said, the photo doesn't do it justice. There's also clarity enhancement that has to be taken into account as well.

Did you ever see paraibainternational.com, maybe you can look online to compare with their stones. However, a private person selling a gem is never going to get the same value as a retailer will.

Good luck, and enjoy your lovely ring.

 

[Marlow]

I compared my Apatite ( madagascar/ Paraiba color) with my little brasilian Paraiba ( bought around 1991 !!!).

This is a quick check:

Use a Chelsea filter - Tourmaline gets intense vivid bluish green - same colored apatite -> no reaction.

The result was the same with 11 apatite and four cut and two dozend tiny rough Paraiba.

The filter is quite cheap - a useful tool in a show for example.

BUT : not 100% - some gems react not as expected!!! a filter is an additional tool.

 

[lilmosun]

Thanks all for putting up with my ignorance and patiently answering my questions.

TL - Yeah, I know the stuff goes through multiple markups. The jeweler who offered me the ring in question usually shows me the invoice for what he paid. I bought the ring with the smaller stones in the wholesale section of Intergem from a long-time seller and even there I know there is a difference in what I can negotiate versus my friend (who owns a retail store and buys in volume). In fact, after almost a year of trying, it was she who was able to get it within my price range in the final day/hour of a very slow show. I looked at Paraiba International before I finally bought the ring. They only had a couple of small stones - more on the green side but from Brazil. Based on a non-expert comparison, I felt I was paying much less than retail. At the end of the day, I couldn't find anything like these stones in my price range so when he finally came down, I bought. I love it and will continue to enjoy it just for its unusual beauty (imo), regardless of value.

Marlow - thanks for the info on the Chelsea filter...I just looked it up and see a handful of tools I should have

Lessons Learned:

- Folks here are awesome
- If it doesn't have the neon glow like the ring I have, it probably isn't a Paraiba
- It is difficult to tell apatite from tourmalines. And even Tourmalines from Aghanistan can have the paraiba color. The ring with the small stones is likely tourmaline but origin can't be determined without sending it in for testing.
- Even with a trusted seller, don't buy unless they specialize in that area or have it certified from a reputable source
- If you are second guessing the purchase, don't buy. If its too good to be true, it probably isn't.
- Don't buy blindly but if you love the piece and paid what its worth to you - just enjoy it

 

[T L]

Well, at least you know you paid a fair price for your ring. I know that LD has a four carat true Brazilian paraiba with some photos here, if you search her threads. It's a square shape. It's incredibly neon, but again, photos just never ever convey the true beauty of these stones. I'm glad you're enjoying your ring, as you should. What's the point of having jewelry if you cannot look at it and enjoy it.

Yes, and the people here awesome.

 

[Marlow]

Both rings are beautiful !

If the first ring is a tourmaline it is not overpaid in my opinion - google for namibian or afghanistan tourmaline.

Compared to a average Mozambique Cuprian they are cheaper and often with an incredible color!!!

Your small stone rings looks like small paraibas - but you will see after buying the Chelsea Filter.

 

[T L]

Both rings are beautiful !

If the first ring is a tourmaline it is not overpaid in my opinion - google for namibian or afghanistan tourmaline.

Compared to a average Mozambique Cuprian they are cheaper and often with an incredible color!!!

Your small stone rings looks like small paraibas - but you will see after buying the Chelsea Filter.

Nigeria was also producing copper bearing stones with a similar color to that ring as well. Just an FYI. They were less intense than the Mozambique stones, but many of them were labeled "paraiba" even though they didn't really glow.

 

[Marlow]

@TL

You are right - cuprian too. But not comparable to brazilian or Mozambique cuprian - I have seen some washed out blues.

Have you seen a nice one. Gemline sold nice not cuprian Tourmaline from Nigeria - this color was great.

I would prefer them or a nice Namibian.