views on these paraibas please?

[Tuffy]

need to tap on the expertise of all of you

what do you think of these paraibas? First time I am seeing these in real life - so not sure if these are considered top quality .. but they certainly cost an arm and a leg. so won't even seriously consider them unless the general consensus is that the quality commands the price

 

[VapidLapid]

well I am no expert, and can only judge the photos not the stones, but they look quite spectacular to me. large and unusually clean as well. I look forward to hearing more about these stones and what others think.

 

[T L]

Do they come with lab reports, and beware of fracture filling, which they're doing quite a bit on included paraibas these days. Are these your photos, because the white balance on those photos looks seriously off, which would make them look more saturated than they are IRL. If these are your photos, are they accurate for color?

What is the price and the size on these? We can't tell you if they're worth it if we don't know. All I can say is never ever buy anything deemed a "paraiba" without a very reputable lab report that also includes all possible treatment. Heating is fine, but fracture filling is a different story.

 

[kt]

I don't know anything about Paraibas, but I think that diamond band you have on next to them is spectacular!

 

[Tuffy]

I took the pictures with the super old iphone. that explains the lousy quality

the bigger one is 4.4+ ct and the other two smaller ones are 2.67 ct. vendor says he can get them certified i.e. not done yet. but claimed that they are unheated (which I thought was q unusual).

for the smaller one, it's about USD5,800 (rounded up) per ct and the bigger one is about USD 6800 (rounded up) per ct.

as for the diamond band - haa haa! it's from another jeweller of mine. I like it v much too - lots of bling!

 

[Tuffy]

forgot to add - the picture with the gem holder is pretty reflective of the colour I saw.

 

[T L]

Thanks for the additional information Tuffy,
I assume they're African? If he says unheated, I would be kind of skeptical. Also, how included are they? Its a bit difficult to tell from your photos. Seems kind of expensive for African material, especially so included (from what I can tell from the photos), but I would require an AGL prestige report with all the bells and whistles for those prices. A simple lab memo isn't sufficient.

BTW, I also love your diamond band!

 

[Tuffy]

just checked with my jeweller - he says from Brazil and unheated. in terms of inclusion, I can see some brown feathers (if that's what they are called). but other than that, fairly clean. The cut is probably average so that's why it doesn't sparkle that much.

I am just not sure if it makes sense to buy such an expensive stone tho. with that same sum, I can get a v nice emerald! but my jeweller says harder to get a nice paraiba compared to an emerald. hmm..

 

[JewelFreak]

It's unlikely they're from Brazil at that size. Very rare to find paraibas over 1 ct. from Brazil -- the veins are about the thickness of a pencil. If they're African, back to what TL said.

I'm knocked out by your diamond band too, gorgeous, I want one!

--- Laurie

 

[LD]

It's extremely unlikely they are from Brazil and unheated. The amount on the market, in the carat weights you have, is exceptionally difficult to find. I strongly suspect these are Mozambique stones and probably heated (most is). The brown feathers you're seeing are most likely copper inclusions (which is a good thing because at least it's indicative of the stones being Cuprians).

Are they worth the money? Well, if they're Brazilian and unheated, probably yes - if the colour is neon and glowing (impossible to tell from your photos). If they're Mozambique stones (most likely), then they're expensive. For example, yesterday I saw a 12.91ct one sold in a ring for £2999 (around $4,500). It had a nice colour but was included and didn't look too dissimilar to the ones you're considering.

Paraiba (or Cuprian) Tourmalines are priced by colour, saturation, clarity and size. Colour is THE most important aspect in that it literally has to glow and have a neon quality - looking almost like a man-made stone and too good to be true. It should scream its colour out at you and even in shade should glow. I know that sounds dramatic but until you've seen a good one, it's almost impossible to understand quite how unique they are.

If you're going to buy one then I would strongly urge you get a lab report from AGL and ask for origin as well. Brazilians command a premium. Your sale should be contingent upon it coming back Brazilian and unheated. If it's a Mozambique stone I would considering passing it up because of the asking price.

If you search this forum you'll find photos of mine, TL's and a few others who, over the years, have collected one or two. We try to get our photos as accurate as possible so it might help you to determine the different colours and glows that were around a few years ago. The one thing photos never show however is the glow. These little gems are incredibly difficult to capture on camera!

 

[T L]

just checked with my jeweller - he says from Brazil and unheated. in terms of inclusion, I can see some brown feathers (if that's what they are called). but other than that, fairly clean. The cut is probably average so that's why it doesn't sparkle that much.

I am just not sure if it makes sense to buy such an expensive stone tho. with that same sum, I can get a v nice emerald! but my jeweller says harder to get a nice paraiba compared to an emerald. hmm..

Are they needles? I would be highly skeptical if they were both Brazilian and untreated. You can prove Brazilian origin, but it's virtually impossible to determine if a paraiba is unheated or not, and the unheated stones were some of the first to be unearthed. If they're really truly super glowy (which they don't appear to be in your photo), truly Brazilian, and truly unheated, they would be worth it, but you cannot really determine the unheated status, unless you dug it up yourself or got it from a well documented original piece of the mine.

It seems a little fishy. I actually have a Mozambique stone that doesn't look very dissimilar to those.

 

[LD]

I actually have a Mozambique stone that doesn't look very dissimilar to those.

Me too!

 

[VapidLapid]

I have to agree with TL on this too. I am under the impression (someone tell me if that is wrong) that the heated/unheated status of tourmaline is not something that can be determined. Because it is unknowable it is not considered a detriment to value. I would think the corollary would be true then that unheated would not be an added value. I would be skeptical of a vendor who made unknowable claims, especially with the implication that they command a premium. Could be they are just repeating what they were told. If you go forward in purchasing one or more of them I second TL's advice that you a) make the sale contingent on them checking out on lab report(s) and b) get the agl prestige report. Also specify beforehand that if they dont check out the vendor is on the hook for the lab costs.

 

[PrecisionGem]

I have not seen any pricing guides that give different prices for heated or non heat tourmaline. The only stones I have seen different prices listed for unheated stones are sapphires and rubies.

 

[minousbijoux]

Apart from what has been said already - the cert being critical - the one thing I truly love about them is what happens in low light conditions. Put stones under a table in low light and most of them lose color and black out; put good quality cuprians under the table or in very low light conditions and they glow and practically beam light like little flashlights.

 

[T L]

I have not seen any pricing guides that give different prices for heated or non heat tourmaline. The only stones I have seen different prices listed for unheated stones are sapphires and rubies.

Like tanzanite, I don't believe heating has an effect on value. What does have an effect on value is origin with Brazilian being top tier, and saturation of course. However, like some first strike gems that originally came out of a pocket very saturated in color, people tend to try to make tons of money off the later strikes with lesser quality material simply because of the marketing name, and the aura surrounding the first strike.

 

[Pandora II]

I had the good fortune to attend a lecture on the original find of Paraiba tourmalines this afternoon by Brian Cook who was at the first mine in the early days and is involved with one of the current Brazilian mines.

The photographs of the original material - unheated, literally as it came out of the ground - were breathtaking. The photographs of the actual mines were also fascinating - it's all in white kaolin clay and so it looks like they are working in snow! However, unlike emerald mines where you can get big crystals, the paraiba tourmaline crystals are small.

From what the guy was saying, the last piece from the original find released onto the market was in 2007 (doesn't mean there aren't still pieces in the mine-owners possession). The stones from the latest mines are beautiful, incredibly saturated but very small - literally large grain of sand size.

One of the questions that I asked following the lecture was on assessing whether or not a stone was cuprian or not and whether this could be done with a basic gem kit. The answer was no - you need advanced spectroscopy and thus a lab report.

These stones are rare and I would definitely go for one over an emerald, especially if everything stacks up. The ones you have posted certainly look like beautiful stones.

As far as them being unheated, here I would be unconvinced until I had proof otherwise. The early unheated material just isn't easily available on the general market and it is very pricy stuff. Can a lab tell if the material has been heated or not? I'll have a look to see if I can find out but if anyone knows and has a source I'd be interested to read (heated and filled stones weren't being discussed so I didn't ask about them).

 

[T L]

Pandora,
I heard it was virtually impossible to detect heating in any tourmaline, as the heating temperature is so low, it doesn't leave tell tale signs like inclusions, or lack thereof. A great person to ask would be Christopher Smith of AGL though.

However, what doesn't concern me with these stones is the heating, but the vendor claiming they're unheated, and when it's highly likely they are heated, and he said they were Brazilian. I would not pay a premium for a Brazilian stone if it looked African, and while these stones are beautiful, to me, they are simply not the caliber of the Brazilian material if the photos are accurate. If he's dishonest, I would not buy the stones. I am also concerned about fracture filling, which would also affect the value.

 

[T L]

Here is a video of a dealer that supposedly owns three original mine unheated Brazilian paraibas (he got them from the mine owner's daughter's personal collection), and he talks about heated vs unheated windex blue paraiba. In some cases, you may be able to tell if it's unheated, but it's very difficult, and in slow low temperature heating, it may be impossible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kiF-fz4XfE

Watch at 4:30 in the video.

I guess if you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the stones are not heat treated, and they're super saturated windex blue, and Brazilian, than they're worth a great deal more than heat treated ones (all the rest being equal). However, proving that is difficult, so always assume heat treatment. Most labs do as well.

 

[VapidLapid]

Forgive me, the guy in that video has lovely wares and Im sure he knows a lot about his subject, but it also sounds like he's talking out his butt. He says that it cannot be determined, then says he and his professors from GIA think these stones he has aren't heated, then says that if you could prove beyond any doubt that they werent heated they would be HUGELY more valuable than if they were heated. On one hand he says there are other inclusions in these stones that he thinks indicate no heat then says that if the heating we done low and slow these indicators too might not be affected, soooooooo there is no way to know. Is there any positive published codified research on diagnosing heat treatment in tourmaline? Will any of the big gemological labs make statements about such treatment?

 

[Tuffy]

wow... such wealth of knowledge! I haven't seen top quality paraibas before so from a visual examination, I am not sure if what was shown to me is really top grade or could they get better. My jeweller got the stones from his supplier so guess whatever info he has, he is just passing it on to me.

to sidetrack, here are more pictures of the diamond band

 

[LD]

A question to the experts please!

If a Paraiba Tourmaline (assume Brazilian) had the odd copper needle, if it were to be heated at what point would the copper melt and become undetectable? I have always assumed that the heat would have to be so high that it would damage the Tourmaline before touching the copper but I just thought I'd ask as I have no scientific knowledge!

 

[Pandora II]

Back with answers...

I saw Brian Cook again this evening and took the opportunity to buttonhole him and ask some specific questions!

There are currently two mines producing Paraiba in Brazil. The material is good but smaller and less saturated than the original find. Apparently there are both heated and unheated stones on the market. The heat treatment is to drive off any grey tones and is done at low heats. Apparently it's not really possible to tell which have and which haven't been heated... BUT... if you come across a stone that seems to have a lot of internal iridescence then it is a good bet that it has been heated. The iridescence is a result of small fractures that occur and the interference caused by the passage of light through the medium of the stone and the airpockets caused by the fractures.

The Mozambique material is far less saturated than the Brazilian - Brazilian stones can have great colour even in very small sizes whereas you need a much bigger stone to get anything approaching the same look.

Regarding the name etc (pertinent to another thread). Paraiba Tourmaline refers only to cuprian tourmalines from Brazil. You can get away with Paraiba Tourmaline for cuprians from Mozambique but it's not ideal. Non-cuprians from Paraiba can be called Paraiba-like or Paraiba-type. Copper content is essential.

Hope some of that is helpful.

Oh, and the guy is also a goldsmith and was wearing some of the jewellery he has made with Paraiba tourmalines - a beautiful cabochon ring and a very cool pendant with a piece of rough enclosed in a quartz circle that was faceted to be a bit like a kaleidoscope. Hence the colour was picked up and spread across what was a large pendant. I had a look online to see what else he had - here's a link if anyone is interested to see some very unique Paraiba pieces: http://www.satyacenter.com/store/crystal/brian_cook

 

[T L]

Thanks Pandora for the information and the link. Tuffy's examples above look to have a lot of iridescence, which initially made me suspect heat treatment.

 

[Barrett]

I had the good fortune to attend a lecture on the original find of Paraiba tourmalines this afternoon by Brian Cook who was at the first mine in the early days and is involved with one of the current Brazilian mines.

The photographs of the original material - unheated, literally as it came out of the ground - were breathtaking. The photographs of the actual mines were also fascinating - it's all in white kaolin clay and so it looks like they are working in snow! However, unlike emerald mines where you can get big crystals, the paraiba tourmaline crystals are small.

From what the guy was saying, the last piece from the original find released onto the market was in 2007 (doesn't mean there aren't still pieces in the mine-owners possession). The stones from the latest mines are beautiful, incredibly saturated but very small - literally large grain of sand size.

One of the questions that I asked following the lecture was on assessing whether or not a stone was cuprian or not and whether this could be done with a basic gem kit. The answer was no - you need advanced spectroscopy and thus a lab report.

These stones are rare and I would definitely go for one over an emerald, especially if everything stacks up. The ones you have posted certainly look like beautiful stones.

As far as them being unheated, here I would be unconvinced until I had proof otherwise. The early unheated material just isn't easily available on the general market and it is very pricy stuff. Can a lab tell if the material has been heated or not? I'll have a look to see if I can find out but if anyone knows and has a source I'd be interested to read (heated and filled stones weren't being discussed so I didn't ask about them).

Great post Pandora. I know Brian Cook's name is under many of the finest specimen pictures I have seen of Brazilian paraiba. Lucky you to have had that opportunity.