Speaking of pretty blue/green tourmalines...

[Arcadian]

did y'all see this?

http://swalagemtraders.com/search-gems/detail.php?pid=2382&cPage=1&sort=&perpage=8&cat=&display1=1&display2=&display3=0&category=&variety=&key=&match=&indicate=&reserve_type=&pagefrom=newarrivals

GORGEOUS!

I already have something coming so I'm done for now. (if I didn't man o man!!!!!!)

-A

 

[Barrett]

So when will you be posting the stone you got? The color is very nice on this one. Is the one you got coming similar?

 

[K9]

That is delicious.

 

[minousbijoux]

K9 - I like yours so much better!

 

[Arcadian]

I should get it pretty soon, amguy, so will post it then.

oh and I saw this one this morning (I gotta stop doing this to myself)

http://phenomenalfacets.com/images/gemstones_for_sale/9.jpg Found on this page: http://phenomenalfacets.com/gemstones_for_sale.php

1.35ct. Electric Blue Paraiba Tourmaline
PARAÍBA TOURMALINE - São Jose do Batalha Mine, Paraiba State, Brazil - Unheated

Ive never seen one that blue before...thats wild!!! I also don't want to take a guess at how much it costs either.

-A

 

[K9]

minousbijoux: *blush*.... thank you!

Arcadian: That one is so blue it looks like a sapphire! Crazy! I'm still eagerly waiting to see pix of your newest addition!

 

[T L]

did y'all see this?

http://swalagemtraders.com/search-gems/detail.php?pid=2382&cPage=1&sort=&perpage=8&cat=&display1=1&display2=&display3=0&category=&variety=&key=&match=&indicate=&reserve_type=&pagefrom=newarrivals

GORGEOUS!

I already have something coming so I'm done for now. (if I didn't man o man!!!!!!)

-A

Just curious, but does Eric mention where the stone comes from? I don't see it. Certain countries produce certain shades of indicolites. For example, that looks Namibian to me.

 

[Aoife]

Very pretty! And a nice size, too.

Where's the thread for your recent purchase, huh?

 

[chrono]

TL,
The last time I asked, Eric was very reluctant to share where it comes from. He said he wanted it to remain a trade secret.

 

[Arcadian]

did y'all see this?

http://swalagemtraders.com/search-gems/detail.php?pid=2382&cPage=1&sort=&perpage=8&cat=&display1=1&display2=&display3=0&category=&variety=&key=&match=&indicate=&reserve_type=&pagefrom=newarrivals

GORGEOUS!

I already have something coming so I'm done for now. (if I didn't man o man!!!!!!)

-A

Just curious, but does Eric mention where the stone comes from? I don't see it. Certain countries produce certain shades of indicolites. For example, that looks Namibian to me.

Eric's pretty good about answering emails on those sorts of things but not sure why its not up there though. I didn't think this would be considered indicolite (they don't have to be bluer?)

Oh and he posted a quite lovely blue spinel. I need to stop looking over there!

-A

 

[Arcadian]

TL,
The last time I asked, Eric was very reluctant to share where it comes from. He said he wanted it to remain a trade secret.

really? thats odd. I guess it would depend of its a general inquiry or a purchase maybe? I tend ot only ask about a stone if I plan on purchasing, and this one..well.. I'mma let someone else have a crack at it...


-A

 

[T L]

did y'all see this?

http://swalagemtraders.com/search-gems/detail.php?pid=2382&cPage=1&sort=&perpage=8&cat=&display1=1&display2=&display3=0&category=&variety=&key=&match=&indicate=&reserve_type=&pagefrom=newarrivals

GORGEOUS!

I already have something coming so I'm done for now. (if I didn't man o man!!!!!!)

-A

Just curious, but does Eric mention where the stone comes from? I don't see it. Certain countries produce certain shades of indicolites. For example, that looks Namibian to me.

Eric's pretty good about answering emails on those sorts of things but not sure why its not up there though. I didn't think this would be considered indicolite (they don't have to be bluer?)

Oh and he posted a quite lovely blue spinel. I need to stop looking over there!

-A

Indicolite, like rubellite, is a marketing name, but I would consider this an indicolite. The primary color is blue.

 

[Arcadian]

Thanks TL. I see a lot of information about persnickety information what makes a tourmaline an indicolite so wanted to ask.

So question to the gurus....that other tourm I posted, is color considered old mine Paraiba? I would assume the price/ct would be pretty stratospheric.

Not that I can AFFORD such a thing unless I win the lottery, but I had to ask since I'm kinda wishing and wanting

-A

 

[chrono]

TL,
The last time I asked, Eric was very reluctant to share where it comes from. He said he wanted it to remain a trade secret.

really? thats odd. I guess it would depend of its a general inquiry or a purchase maybe? I tend ot only ask about a stone if I plan on purchasing, and this one..well.. I'mma let someone else have a crack at it...


-A

Arc,
It was a potential purchase as I was interested in tourmalines of that colour/type. I think it was sometime last year.

 

[T L]

Thanks TL. I see a lot of information about persnickety information what makes a tourmaline an indicolite so wanted to ask.

So question to the gurus....that other tourm I posted, is color considered old mine Paraiba? I would assume the price/ct would be pretty stratospheric.

Not that I can AFFORD such a thing unless I win the lottery, but I had to ask since I'm kinda wishing and wanting

-A

Arcadian,
I'm trying to find out more about that color tourmaline as it is very unusual. When something is unusual, I typically do some research about it on other sites. I'll keep you posted on what I find out.

 

[Arcadian]

Thanks TL. I see a lot of information about persnickety information what makes a tourmaline an indicolite so wanted to ask.

So question to the gurus....that other tourm I posted, is color considered old mine Paraiba? I would assume the price/ct would be pretty stratospheric.

Not that I can AFFORD such a thing unless I win the lottery, but I had to ask since I'm kinda wishing and wanting

-A

Arcadian,
I'm trying to find out more about that color tourmaline as it is very unusual. When something is unusual, I typically do some research about it on other sites. I'll keep you posted on what I find out.

Very Kewl! Thanks!


-A

 

[LD]

TL - I would agree that it looks more indicolite.

Arc - fess up! When are we going to see photos?

 

[Arcadian]

TL - I would agree that it looks more indicolite.

Arc - fess up! When are we going to see photos?

"coming soon"

-A

 

[diamondringlover]

I am not a green lover, but that is a very pretty stone!

 

[brandy_z28]

I should get it pretty soon, amguy, so will post it then.

oh and I saw this one this morning (I gotta stop doing this to myself)

http://phenomenalfacets.com/images/gemstones_for_sale/9.jpg Found on this page: http://phenomenalfacets.com/gemstones_for_sale.php

1.35ct. Electric Blue Paraiba Tourmaline
PARAÍBA TOURMALINE - São Jose do Batalha Mine, Paraiba State, Brazil - Unheated

Ive never seen one that blue before...thats wild!!! I also don't want to take a guess at how much it costs either.

-A

That's blue!! I like!!!

 

[JewelFreak]

It's an amazing color. Beautiful.

 

[tefutefu]

Oooooo
Arcadian, I sure would love the see photos too

 

[T L]

Thanks TL. I see a lot of information about persnickety information what makes a tourmaline an indicolite so wanted to ask.

So question to the gurus....that other tourm I posted, is color considered old mine Paraiba? I would assume the price/ct would be pretty stratospheric.

Not that I can AFFORD such a thing unless I win the lottery, but I had to ask since I'm kinda wishing and wanting

-A

Arcadian,
I'm trying to find out more about that color tourmaline as it is very unusual. When something is unusual, I typically do some research about it on other sites. I'll keep you posted on what I find out.

Very Kewl! Thanks!


-A

My gemologist cyber-friend looked at the photo and stated that is a rare color for tourmaline, but the "bayer sensor" (some camera sensor) is making it more vivid than it probably is IRL. He also stated that there is no way to tell if it was unheated vs. heated, so if you're interested in that stone, I would ask the vendor how they know for sure the stone is not heated. It would be interesting to find out.

Just so people know, these comments are about this stone

http://phenomenalfacets.com/images/gemstones_for_sale/9.jpg

not Swala's stone at the top of this thread.

 

[Arcadian]

Thats wild.

The only other dark blue I've ever seen was on the pala website

http://www.palagems.com/Images/tourmaline/paraiba%20suite.jpg

So I can get that their pretty rare, but to have only seen 2 on the entire internet is really rare to me. Have you asked him about the one on Palas site too? I would also think that maybe the precision cutting plays some part in how it looks too?


Thanks for looking into it TL. I'll see what else is out there I guess.

-A

 

[Arcadian]

I actually did get in touch with the seller. He seems like a very nice guy and has apparently been in the business for a lot of years according to his website. He told me he's had the rough in his possession since the 1990's.

He also gave me another image of the stone.

As far as the inclusions, he says its not heated, that would have risked destroying the stone (can understand that, one of my purples one is like that) But the color seen in the pictures is the color the stone is naturally. Heated it would have turned the more traditional color, though because of the inclusions, its not recommended.

Anyway, I'm going to attach one of the images he sent. The one on the website he said he used a 5000k ring light. That explains why it looks how it does there.

This is the pic he sent under natural daylight.




I did ask about a report but no mention of one was made. But I would think that that AGL would be able to ID the stone and where its from with a Prestige Report? For a stone like this it would be worth it. Anyone with any sense would make the sale contingent on what was found in the report of course.

Being that its not eye clean, and that you can't heat it for fear it would rupture, I can't imagine what the cost of it would be. I wouldn't expect it to be anywhere near its cleaner counterpart (well.. I guess??)

So yeah its interesting. Hell I'm interested!

The other rarity on his site is a large newery Maine Tourmaline which I have to admit..I lusted over it

Ugh...this is bad for me...

-A

 

[ooo~Shiney!]

I think you should snatch it up !!!!
In the name of research of course!
We all want to see it!!!!

Ahhhhhh, that Golden Tourmaline too !!!!
Where is my money tree ?????

 

[T L]

I actually did get in touch with the seller. He seems like a very nice guy and has apparently been in the business for a lot of years according to his website. He told me he's had the rough in his possession since the 1990's.

He also gave me another image of the stone.

As far as the inclusions, he says its not heated, that would have risked destroying the stone (can understand that, one of my purples one is like that) But the color seen in the pictures is the color the stone is naturally. Heated it would have turned the more traditional color, though because of the inclusions, its not recommended.

Anyway, I'm going to attach one of the images he sent. The one on the website he said he used a 5000k ring light. That explains why it looks how it does there.

This is the pic he sent under natural daylight.




I did ask about a report but no mention of one was made. But I would think that that AGL would be able to ID the stone and where its from with a Prestige Report? For a stone like this it would be worth it. Anyone with any sense would make the sale contingent on what was found in the report of course.

Being that its not eye clean, and that you can't heat it for fear it would rupture, I can't imagine what the cost of it would be. I wouldn't expect it to be anywhere near its cleaner counterpart (well.. I guess??)

So yeah its interesting. Hell I'm interested!

The other rarity on his site is a large newery Maine Tourmaline which I have to admit..I lusted over it

Ugh...this is bad for me...

-A

I hate to say it, but I'm not as impressed with the new picture. It looks too dark to me, and i worry about extinction now, if this photo is accurate. I don't see the "neon" quality that true paraibas have. Also, since treatment of indicolite, in particular darker blues, is not detectable, I personally wouldn't touch any indicolite with a 100 foot pole, let alone a darker one, regardless of what a vendor states about it's treatment. I think this non-detectable treatment is going to have an impact on their value. Others I have spoken with feel the same way. I'm sorry.

It is also important to note that the inclusions could have gotten worse after heating, so if the vendor states it's not heated because of the inclusions, who knows if that is the before/after heating result. This is a case where you have to trust the vendor's word, but I never trust without verification. In this case, unfortunately, verification is impossible. Those inclusions are called trichites, and I know people that have seen them in heated and unheated tourmalines. I have heated tourmalines with lots of inclusions as well, fissures, cracks, etc. . . and you would think that they never should have been heated, but the heating in many cases, caused those inclusions to worsen. Also, with highly included tourmalines (paraibas in particular), you also have to worry about clarity enhancement.

ETA: I see the pala picture you're referencing. When I first saw this stone, that photo at Pala immediately came to mind. That's a pretty old picture. I think at least ten years old. I did not ask him about that Pala photo.

 

[Colored Gemstone Nut]

Arcadian,

As you stated earlier this stone was fashioned from a rough crystal back in the mid 90s and the rough was sourced from the the Sao Jose do Batalha Mine, Paraiba State, Brazil. This piece of tourmaline is unheated . The stone displays typical inclusions present from this locale and does not detract from the overall beauty of the material. This material in particular is prized for its color.

This stone was cut from rough in 1996. Elbaite tourmaline contains surprisingly high concentrations of copper which produce some very striking “neon” like colors. If it where heat treated as many are it would be of the true Caribbean blue color and not the sapphire blue color that it naturally possesses... but I would not recommend heat treating it due to some natural inclusions in it that may rupture in the process and is why it is left in it's natural color state which is by far rarer then the Caribbean blue color.

Using a 5000k ring light shows the stone off best with it's reflective properties and appears to be glowing because of the full 360 degree illumination and the other photo is outside under natural daylight with a clear blue sky and shows the stone in its true natural color. The two photos appear different due to the nature of the lighting and the conditions of the photography and have not been doctored in any way other then cropping the photo for size. Gemstones are poorly represented in any static image no matter how good the lighting or shooting environment is. We are currently in the works to incorporate HD video of our inventory.

 

[T L]

Arcadian,

As you stated earlier this stone was fashioned from a rough crystal back in the mid 90s and the rough was sourced from the the Sao Jose do Batalha Mine, Paraiba State, Brazil. This piece of tourmaline is unheated . The stone displays typical inclusions present from this locale and does not detract from the overall beauty of the material. This material in particular is prized for its color.

This stone was cut from rough in 1996. Elbaite tourmaline contains surprisingly high concentrations of copper which produce some very striking “neon” like colors. If it where heat treated as many are it would be of the true Caribbean blue color and not the sapphire blue color that it naturally possesses... but I would not recommend heat treating it due to some natural inclusions in it that may rupture in the process and is why it is left in it's natural color state which is by far rarer then the Caribbean blue color.

Using a 5000k ring light shows the stone off best with it's reflective properties and appears to be glowing because of the full 360 degree illumination and the other photo is outside under natural daylight with a clear blue sky and shows the stone in its true natural color. The two photos appear different due to the nature of the lighting and the conditions of the photography and have not been doctored in any way other then cropping the photo for size. Gemstones are poorly represented in any static image no matter how good the lighting or shooting environment is. We are currently in the works to incorporate HD video of our inventory.

Josh, still, in the end, you are the vendor who is trying to sell this stone, and she has to take your word for all of this. Do you have the lab paperwork with that stone that was dated from the 90's? If so, I think that would add to the value of it. I'm not trying to argue with you, but tourmaline treatment in this day and age is undetectable. If you had, for example, an AGL from the 90's, that would be a great comfort to anyone spending a great deal on this stone, as I assume it isn't inexpensive. You don't even have the price listed.

I don't mean to sound harsh, I'm just a very skeptical person, as I have been collecting colored gems for 20 years or so, and I have been burned, and have seen others burned, numerous times. Verification, at least to me, is utterly important when we're talking a potentially rare and valuable gem.

 

[Arcadian]

Hi Josh

So TL, wouldn't AGL have the equipment to identify such a stone and its location? According to GRS, there's several techniques used for this.

From GRS from their 2009 study:

"We found it useful to investigate the origin based on chemical fingerprints using different methods, including EMPA, LIBS, LA-ICP-MS and ED-XRF analyses. Based on these analyses, it was found that the chemical composition of copper-bearing tourmalines from Mozambique, Nigeria and Brazil show distinct differences, which are sufficient selective to determine their origin"

I would assume that all of the major labs have the ability to test for location, or at least I would find one that could.

If clarity enhanced, I would assume that could be found out rather easily under a microscope by an experienced person. I know there is talk of using several types of CE's from oil to Opticon. Many of these have been easily found under a microsocope.

I don't know what a lab report from the 90s would have done, considering the evolution of processes today. I also don't doubt there's cutters out there with stuff they've held on to over the years that they never figured they'd have to send to a lab right away.

I'm going to post some information I found on GRS website. I'm still reading through this, as its quite extensive. I've gotten a lot of great info though.

http://www.gemresearch.ch/journal/No9/page01.htm


He does make mention that the heated stones were mostly blue/green and that not all the purple tourms were unheated. I'm still trying to read through how that determination was made.

High valuable copper-bearing tourmalines occur in different color and large size and are produced in Brazil, Mozambique and Nigeria. The sizes and distribution of these gemstones in the gem market were studied and a statistic about the trade has been published in this report. These types of tourmalines include many different color varieties and are found as heated as well as unheated gems (Fig. Par07 and 12). Unusual large sizes have been found from the mines in Mozambique. The majority of the stones have been heat-treated in the greenish-blue to blue colors, whereas the purple and green colors are more frequently spared of thermal enhancement (Fig. Par07). These findings are in good agreement with the findings from heat-treatment experiments (Lit. Par33), which predicted that heat-treatment of green colors, is possible with limited success only. Copper-bearing tourmalines from Brazil such as from the state of “Paraiba” were more often found to be unheated than Mozambique tourmalines. Gem quality “Paraiba”-tourmalines does occur in much smaller sizes than the African counterparts, but they are generally more saturated in color. According to our opinion, large-sized unheated gem-quality tourmalines from Brazil (Paraiba or Rio Grande do Norte) with intense “neon”-blue colors can be described as extremely rare (See Fig. Par07, 08, 11 and 12).

There's much more in that report that I have to read and understand, but its slow going. *i'm not a scientist *

Now, by the same token, anything you buy, unless you don't get it out of the ground yourself, or know every single person in the supply chain, you have to have faith in the seller that hes disclosing any and all treatment information. Then you have to be able to verify it.

But from what you've said TL it can't be verified.


On undetectable treatments like radiation, thats been going on for some time apparently.

Here's a few other studies I found on tourmalines

published in 1975
http://www.minsocam.org/ammin/AM60/AM60_710.pdf


and in 1988
http://www.minsocam.org/ammin/AM73/AM73_822.pdf

Another from 1988 on Gemstone irradiation
http://lgdl.gia.edu/pdfs/ashbaughw88.pdf

So if they were doing this stuff then, what does that say about the tourmalines we've got now? does that mean that anything after 1975 is possibly irradiated? maybe, I don't know, I'm still reading to find that out.

I know you trust your source TL, but I have to say, being his wife sells gems and jewelery, I put in him the realm of vendor. This is not saying that his info is bad, Its saying at the end of the day, they sell stuff too.

Everyone should do their own research as much as they can, and also have some measure of trust that the seller is disclosing any and all treatments. If you can't trust the seller is disclosing to their knowledge true information about a thing, then its a good policy to not buy from them. I take that to heart anytime I buy a gemstone these days, because of the level of stones I'm now buying! this ish gets xpensive!

I research everything I can like mad, because I at least want to be educated about what I'm buying. And while I do rely on others experience, I still try to find that proof myself.

So I do appreciate the information given TL, I don't want o you to think otherwise, but I also have to say that I will disagree with some of it. Josh's company is selling the stone true, but I also don't think they'd be willing to mess up their longstanding reputation either. Pricescope is good and bad for some vendors, that is something I'm sure they're all aware of.

The stone to me dosen't look bad the cut is very nice which I think makes the stone look quite lovely. Color saturation looks very good to me without being too dark. Being the stone was taken with a Canon Powershot G3, I'm sure whomever took it bent over the stone to get the shot.

And in the case of these stones, didn't you say that copper bearing stones don't always show their beauty in pictures? We also know that pricescope kills pictures. On my home screen when I open the picture, its very nice looking.

Region of where the stone is from can be verified. The heat issue, well generally 600cc on a tourmaline isn't all that high, but there may be other markers that the stone is unheated, I'm reading about this right now to see if it can be determined. Filled fractures, if they were filled, likely can be verified as well.

So to me, it makes sense to do background on the vendor, engage the vendor to see if both of you meet eye to eye, ask questions about the stone, have the stone checked by an independent 3rd party. A sale of a stone of this caliber should always be contingent on a lab report. If I were to move forward, thats exactly what I would do.

Treatments will always evolve, And that means you either stop buying until those treatments are detectable or, you get educated and make a decision on what for you is the best possible way to go. For some that means they don't buy anything, for others, they do and enjoy it for what it is.


Colored stones is crazy but well. isn't life?

-A