Ruby questions and LA referrals?

[London]

So it's official! I am changing my plan of attack. I originally wanted a diamond, then decided on a blue sapphire and now I see the light. A beautiful red ruby is the stone for me! This will be a RHR.

Here is what I think I want so far:
Prefer no heat and no treatments but would consider heat only to stay within budget.
I want Fluorescence so I guess it would have to be a Burmese ruby?
The color I want: not sure how to term it.



I don't mind some inclusions as long as it is not distracting.
min dimensions 8.5x8.5 (3crt'ish) in a square cushion or square emerald cut or any other squarish shape.
AGL prestige full grading report
Is there any other details I'm missing?
Budget is 35k max if it is an amazing stone and amazing deal. I would prefer to stay under 30k.

So my questions are:
-do you think I can find what I want in my $ range?
-It seems to me that it is much easier to compare and contrast diamond prices through PS diamond search. Is there anything like this that exists for Rubies?
-I know that no one has a crystal ball but what is the sense of ruby prices? Will prices go up over time? Is it a good investment? Is there a Ruby price chart anywhere to see how prices have evolved over the years?
-I think I will need to see the stone in person before making a purchase like this. Is there anyone in Los Angeles area that specializes in AGL certified quality rubies?

Lastly, TIA! All opinions and info are appreciated and welcomed because I don't know much and need a ruby education ASAP!

 

[cm366]

Lots and lots of reading material out there about rubies! I'd seriously consider reading through some of Richard Hughes' books (http://www.ruby-sapphire.com/).


It's true that there isn't a great database of CS prices (there are a few industry price references, but none are universally respected). However, you might get a ballpark idea by looking at a couple of vendors with online inventories and published prices....

http://www.gemfix.com/ruby.html

http://www.ajsgem.com/burma-ruby-gemstone-ruby-2046340429.html

 

[London]

Lots and lots of reading material out there about rubies! I'd seriously consider reading through some of Richard Hughes' books (http://www.ruby-sapphire.com/).


It's true that there isn't a great database of CS prices (there are a few industry price references, but none are universally respected). However, you might get a ballpark idea by looking at a couple of vendors with online inventories and published prices....

http://www.gemfix.com/ruby.html

http://www.ajsgem.com/burma-ruby-gemstone-ruby-2046340429.html

That was actually one of my questions I forgot to post. I wanted to ask about reading materials. I will definitely check R. Hughes book. Thanks!

Looked through gemfix earlier and the largest stone I think I saw was a 2.4 crt. Need to check out ajsgem next.

 

[London]

Lots and lots of reading material out there about rubies! I'd seriously consider reading through some of Richard Hughes' books (http://www.ruby-sapphire.com/).


It's true that there isn't a great database of CS prices (there are a few industry price references, but none are universally respected). However, you might get a ballpark idea by looking at a couple of vendors with online inventories and published prices....

http://www.gemfix.com/ruby.html

http://www.ajsgem.com/burma-ruby-gemstone-ruby-2046340429.html

Is buying a Burma ruby from an out of country on-line vendor legal?

 

[gemandjewelrylover]

Here is a link to the Gemstone Forecaster, and if you scroll to the end, thou can see the price trends for some of the most popular stones over time, including ruby. I've included a photo, but if you can't see it clearly click on the link.

http://www.preciousgemstones.com/gfspring14.html

Don't know if prices will keep going up, but as an overall trend for many stones, up has always been the direction!

 

[gemandjewelrylover]

Oops, I just realized it says reproduction prohibited, did I break a rule? Sorry....do I need to remove it? Or is it okay and informational, learning settings such as this?

 

[cm366]

Is buying a Burma ruby from an out of country on-line vendor legal?

I rather suspect it's not, for someone in the States - AJS and wildfish (http://www.wildfishgems.com/ruby_over_2_carat?b=1&gclid=CPr-gfrj870CFYzCpAod4H0Amw) would just be my suggestions for quick looks at respectable stones and (very) rough price guides. Of the two, lots of people would tell you that wildfish's prices tend to the high side.... it's true, but they're probably not too far from what you'd pay for stones of similar quality in a brick and mortar retail store. They also give you a guide to what features are going to cost you more in any given stone, since they've all got similar markups.

If you've got a local jeweler who's willing to play along, it might also be worth picking out a few favorites from Pala Gems (http://www.palagems.com/home.htm) and enquiring about them. They don't post prices openly, but having an idea of what your dream stone would cost from them might arm you for negotiations with any LA-area dealers folks come up with!

As far as 'investment' goes.... Robert Genis is the author of the Gemstone Forecaster. His principal employment is running a business that invests your money in gemstones. That's not in and of itself reason to disbelieve his ideas, but I'd treat it like a real property "investment journal" written by your local estate agency.

 

[chrono]

So it's official! I am changing my plan of attack. I originally wanted a diamond, then decided on a blue sapphire and now I see the light. A beautiful red ruby is the stone for me! This will be a RHR.
Awesome! I love rubies too and it's refreshing to see something different from the usual blue sapphire.

Here is what I think I want so far:
Prefer no heat and no treatments but would consider heat only to stay within budget.
I want Fluorescence so I guess it would have to be a Burmese ruby? Not all Burmese rubies fluorescence but yes, I prefer rubies that react to UV. It helps amp up the colour outdoors.
The color I want: not sure how to term it. Definitely top red: medium dark, pure red (or with a very slight blue modifier) with strong to intense saturation.

I don't mind some inclusions as long as it is not distracting.
min dimensions 8.5x8.5 (3crt'ish) in a square cushion or square emerald cut or any other squarish shape. Untreated 8.5 mm rubies with top colour aren't exactly a dime a dozen. Add to the fact that you are requesting a specific shape, makes it more difficult. You will find many ovals. Other shapes are going to compound the level of search difficulty easily by 10x or more.
AGL prestige full grading report You might have to request this from the vendor but in the grand scheme of things, this is the least problematic concern.
Is there any other details I'm missing?
Budget is 35k max if it is an amazing stone and amazing deal. I would prefer to stay under 30k.

So my questions are:
-do you think I can find what I want in my $ range? Untreated is definitely out. You might find something heated.
-It seems to me that it is much easier to compare and contrast diamond prices through PS diamond search. Is there anything like this that exists for Rubies? Yes, and no. At this level, there aren't many choices.
-I know that no one has a crystal ball but what is the sense of ruby prices? Will prices go up over time? Is it a good investment? Is there a Ruby price chart anywhere to see how prices have evolved over the years? See the Gem Forecaster
-I think I will need to see the stone in person before making a purchase like this. Is there anyone in Los Angeles area that specializes in AGL certified quality rubies? Let's start with quality rubies, then the vendor can always send it off to AGL and have the sale contingent on the result.

Lastly, TIA! All opinions and info are appreciated and welcomed because I don't know much and need a ruby education ASAP!

 

[chrono]

Another source of historical prices of rubies
http://www.gemval.com/history.php?hsid=16&term=2

I cannot recommend Richard Hughes highly enough. You might also want to reach out to him to ask if he is open to act as your broker (buyer on your behalf) for a top ruby. He has the connections, experience and skill to select something that suits your requirements.
http://www.ruby-sapphire.com/index.html

Potential sources
http://www.africagems.com/burma-ruby1-5plus.html
http://www.ajsgem.com/burma-ruby-gemstone-ruby-2046340429.html
Constantin Wild - www.gemstone.de
http://www.palagems.com/php/db_search.php?action=gemresults&actionType=easy&Gem_Type=Ruby&greater_less=&Total_Weight=&inventory_number=&submit=Find+All+Matches

 

[minousbijoux]

I don't trust Gemval as a very good source. It used to be that their sample size was too small to be meaningful; in all the years that I received "The Guide," Gemval's prices were way off the mark. I would go with the Gem Forecaster as G&JL has recommended. I would also suggest that with that budget, you might want to see if you can find one already set. Our member Athenaworth recently showed some gorgeous stones she saw in L.A. jewelry stores that for what they were, seemed to be bargains. Perhaps she has come across some pre-embargo, Burma ruby rings.

 

[London]

Thank you all as always. Lots of great info!

I think I am going to open up my search to smaller sizes and different cuts to stay within my budget. Quality and color is most important to me so I feel that it is a fair compromise.

Are there any top of the line sample AGL reports for rubies so I can compare and contrast what to look for and what is realistic?

 

[minousbijoux]

I think you are wise to make those concessions.

I'm not sure I understand your question - can you rephrase it?

 

[London]

I think you are wise to make those concessions.

I'm not sure I understand your question - can you rephrase it?

Sorry for being confusing!

So for example, I am much more educated in the diamond world and what to look for on a GIA cert. Generally speaking I know I am looking for a certain depth, a certain table, no florescence in a high color, Ex to VG polish and symmetry, a desired clarity level etc... In other words I know what my minimum requirements are.

I feel that since with Rubies there is no list of prices and AGL certs readily available I am not quite sure what my min requirements are. Other than knowing that my min requirement is 'heat only' I 'think' I've learned that I want the red color to be 70% or higher as listed on an AGL cert. However even with that I'm not sure if 70% red puts me in a top ruby category and is a min requirement for me. Hopefully I am making more sense. So I am looking for a few AGL certs that have everything that one would want in a ruby in terms of color, brilliance, clarity, tone, saturation and whatever else is important. In other words, I would like to use a top ruby AGL cert as a basis of comparison to judge other rubies that I find.

Also is there a cut/shape that is generally considered more desirable/pricey?

Sorry if I am being overly meticulous. But the prices out there seem to range so greatly that its hard to know what is priced fairly and what is not. Maybe I should just get a GIA education in gems haha

 

[London]

thoughts on this ruby and pricing and being Tanzanian? I think I want burma but am concerned that if the ban is lifted prices will be affected and then i may or may not kick myself for buying or not buying. Not sure if prices would go up or down if ban is lifted.

http://www.wildfishgems.com/inc/sdetail/10910/17943

as you can see I've shrunken my size requirement significantly. The ruby is going to be place between two half carat square emerald cut diamonds. I'm kind of liking the idea of having the ruby only be 40-50% bigger witch puts me in the sq. emerald cut 6x6 range give or take in length to width ratio. I'm hoping to stay under budget and get something unheated and very nice/top of the line in the 1-1.5 crt range. I think I'm liking my new plan of attack because the quality of what I am looking for should be attainable I think!

edit: never mind the wildfish stone. I see too many scratches on it...

 

[FrekeChild]

The flaws in that stone seem like inclusions to me.

I'm just going to post stuff.

http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/sapphires/c-15-rubies/p-50229-emerald-cut-ruby-u4468/

http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/sapphires/c-15-rubies/p-50675-cushion-ruby-u3946/

This is a very very very deeply cut stone.
http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/sapphires/c-15-rubies/p-38012-cushion-ruby-u3234/

http://www.ajsgem.com/ruby/burma-ruby/burma-ruby-1.63-carats.html-0

http://www.ajsgem.com/ruby/burma-ruby/burma-ruby-1.32-carats.html-1

http://www.ajsgem.com/ruby/burma-ruby/burma-ruby-1.41-carats.html-0

http://www.ajsgem.com/ruby/burma-ruby/burma-ruby-1.06-carats.html-3

 

[London]

The flaws in that stone seem like inclusions to me.

I'm just going to post stuff.

http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/sapphires/c-15-rubies/p-50229-emerald-cut-ruby-u4468/

http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/sapphires/c-15-rubies/p-50675-cushion-ruby-u3946/

This is a very very very deeply cut stone.
http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/sapphires/c-15-rubies/p-38012-cushion-ruby-u3234/

http://www.ajsgem.com/ruby/burma-ruby/burma-ruby-1.63-carats.html-0

http://www.ajsgem.com/ruby/burma-ruby/burma-ruby-1.32-carats.html-1

http://www.ajsgem.com/ruby/burma-ruby/burma-ruby-1.41-carats.html-0

http://www.ajsgem.com/ruby/burma-ruby/burma-ruby-1.06-carats.html-3

Thank you so much Frekechild!
I'm really liking the 1.63 from ajs. Although I am considering heated, if this was unheated it would be perfection. Now to figure out if I can stomach buying something on-line, out of country, and without an AGL report. Does 12k feel right to you for this stone? Last time I went to dtown LA I wasn't on the search for rubies so not sure if I could do better there...

 

[chrono]

I don't trust Gemval as a very good source. It used to be that their sample size was too small to be meaningful; in all the years that I received "The Guide," Gemval's prices were way off the mark. I would go with the Gem Forecaster as G&JL has recommended. I would also suggest that with that budget, you might want to see if you can find one already set. Our member Athenaworth recently showed some gorgeous stones she saw in L.A. jewelry stores that for what they were, seemed to be bargains. Perhaps she has come across some pre-embargo, Burma ruby rings.

Minou,
Any idea what is the sample size for Gemval compared to the Forecaster?

 

[chrono]

Within "heat", there are several categories. Which one are you fine with? Unfortunately, many vendors only state "heat" without more details as to the amount of residue which affects pricing significantly.
Heat with no signs of residue?
Heat with minor residue?
Heat with moderate residue?
Heat with significant residue?

http://www.ssef.ch/uploads/media/2001_Haenni_Ruby_treatment_and_fracture_repair.pdf
http://www.ruby-sapphire.com/flux_healing_mong_hsu_ruby.htm

 

[London]

Within "heat", there are several categories. Which one are you fine with? Unfortunately, many vendors only state "heat" without more details as to the amount of residue which affects pricing significantly.
Heat with no signs of residue?
Heat with minor residue?
Heat with moderate residue?
Heat with significant residue?

http://www.ssef.ch/uploads/media/2001_Haenni_Ruby_treatment_and_fracture_repair.pdf
http://www.ruby-sapphire.com/flux_healing_mong_hsu_ruby.htm

Thank you for the info Chrono.

I am thinking I am going to stick to 'No Heat' from this point on. Since I have revised my requirements to 1 - 1.5 carats 6x6'ish dimensions I am hoping I will be able to find a good unheated Burma ruby within and preferably below my budget. The toughest part seems to be very few vendors offer an AGL ready to review so its making it tricky for me.

 

[chrono]

Look at the ruby. Do you like what you see? Do you like the colour? Once you've narrowed it down, discuss lab reports with the vendor. Have the sale contingent on the paperwork stating that it is untreated. I doubt any vendor will agree to have the sale contingent on the AGL colour quality and few will go through the expense of an AGL prestige report for all their stones. It is highly unlikely that stones you are considering will come with an AGL report upfront.

 

[London]

Look at the ruby. Do you like what you see? Do you like the colour? Once you've narrowed it down, discuss lab reports with the vendor. Have the sale contingent on the paperwork stating that it is untreated. I doubt any vendor will agree to have the sale contingent on the AGL colour quality and few will go through the expense of an AGL prestige report for all their stones. It is highly unlikely that stones you are considering will come with an AGL report upfront.

This makes sense. Thank you.

It's just such a different mind set than buying a diamond with almost everything spelled out for you on the GIA cert. Of course you still need to see in person to see if you like the cut and eye clean but overall there is a lot more information provided. It seems that in the ruby world you have just judge with your personal aesthetics and should have a basis for visual comparison.

 

[minousbijoux]

I don't trust Gemval as a very good source. It used to be that their sample size was too small to be meaningful; in all the years that I received "The Guide," Gemval's prices were way off the mark. I would go with the Gem Forecaster as G&JL has recommended. I would also suggest that with that budget, you might want to see if you can find one already set. Our member Athenaworth recently showed some gorgeous stones she saw in L.A. jewelry stores that for what they were, seemed to be bargains. Perhaps she has come across some pre-embargo, Burma ruby rings.

Minou,
Any idea what is the sample size for Gemval compared to the Forecaster?

Good question and no, I don't. But Roger Genis has been around for a long time and is well respected, and, as you know, The Guide, as the industry standard, surveys a large population for its data.

 

[minousbijoux]

It's just such a different mind set than buying a diamond with almost everything spelled out for you on the GIA cert. Of course you still need to see in person to see if you like the cut and eye clean but overall there is a lot more information provided. It seems that in the ruby world you have just judge with your personal aesthetics and should have a basis for visual comparison.

Great observations and all true, unfortunately. It is why so many of us say to see as many stones as you can before purchase, and to buy what you like, not what other people like or what the industry says is best. I can't recall if you've said where you are located, but if you can, it might be a good idea to go to a Gem show if there are any nearby. It might help you to better understand what color modifiers you will accept in your red, the tone you like, and the shapes/dimensions that would fit.

 

[London]

It's just such a different mind set than buying a diamond with almost everything spelled out for you on the GIA cert. Of course you still need to see in person to see if you like the cut and eye clean but overall there is a lot more information provided. It seems that in the ruby world you have just judge with your personal aesthetics and should have a basis for visual comparison.

Great observations and all true, unfortunately. It is why so many of us say to see as many stones as you can before purchase, and to buy what you like, not what other people like or what the industry says is best. I can't recall if you've said where you are located, but if you can, it might be a good idea to go to a Gem show if there are any nearby. It might help you to better understand what color modifiers you will accept in your red, the tone you like, and the shapes/dimensions that would fit.

I am in LA. I believe there is a gem show coming up in Vegas but I am not trade so I don't think I would be able to get a pass

 

[minousbijoux]

Look up Intergem. You must have a big one that comes to the LA area.

 

[chrono]

The fact that you want a 6 x 6 mm square is the most restrictive of requirements. Any chance you can open up the size and/or shape?

 

[London]

The fact that you want a 6 x 6 mm square is the most restrictive of requirements. Any chance you can open up the size and/or shape?

I am open to a 6x6 range. It doesn't have to be exact also I am open to different cuts and shapes although my favorite would be sq. step cut.

Would you happen to know if the only way to order Richard Hughes book is international through his website? Which other books of his would you recommend?

Any reads by other authors that I should consider to get different perspectives?

I know I cant get real world experience from books but I am doing my darnedest to learn as much as I can. I am loving rubies specifically, but really many of the colored stones. They are so complicated and exciting!

 

[Dioptase]

You can read the articles written by my friend Vincent Pardieu on his personnal fieldgemology website or the GIA Bangkok website. He is extremely knowledgeable about rubies and sapphires (and spinels and other stones...).

 

[chrono]

You can read the articles written by my friend Vincent Pardieu on his personnal fieldgemology website or the GIA Bangkok website. He is extremely knowledgeable about rubies and sapphires (and spinels and other stones...).

A great suggestion! Both Vincent and Dick are very highly regarded in the gemmology field.

 

[London]

Thank you Chrono and Dioptase! You guys are awesome!