Pink diamond questions

[pinkjewel]

According to the literature and articles I've read-90% of pink diamonds come from the Argyle mines. Which other mines produce pink diamonds? And why does it seem that most of the pink diamonds I see for sale are not stated as coming from the Argyle mines if they really are responsible for 90% production. Can GIA determine origin of a pink diamond? Or can another lab?

Since Argyle only certs or laser engraves a small portion of their diamonds, do you all think that some of the pinks being sold are Argyle pinks, but can't be identified as such because of lack of identification from Argyle?

 

[pinkjewel]

OK- all you FCD gurus- what do you think???????

 

[kenny]

I have been told by Leibish there ARE experts whom can identify which pinks are from Argyle.
You may want to have a conversation with their GG, Shmulik Polnauer.
Reach him through their website www.fancydiamonds.net
You may also want to call Stephen C. Hofer in MA who is widely regarded as a top FCD guru, who wrote that 9-poung FCD Bible.
http://www.stephenhofer.com/shblog/


That said Argyle decides which of its pinks are worth of status of Tender stones, an Argyle laser inscription AND certificate, only laser inscription or no Argyle identification.

Only time will tell how the pinks from Argyle with no Argyle-provided provenance appreciate compared to Argyle-blessed stones.

I suspect the ones with at least a laser inscription will do better than those without, just a suspicion.

Look at Tiffany which sells diamonds that are not top cut, or Steinway pianos which insiders know to be of wildly-variable quality, or Mercedes, which consistently get poor reliability ratings.

Marketing and branding are powerful things, even though they are not real.
Prestigious brand mean something to buyers, even when they shouldn't.
Pink is Pink.
Queen Elizabeth's huge pink precedes the discovery of the Argyle mine.

 

[pinkjewel]

thanks, Kenny. I did a little more research on line and have found that the "make up" of argyle pinks ARE different than other pinks. So I think once you've seen the different types under high magnification-it would be relatively easy to determine if it's an Argyle, especially for an expert. But-my questions don't really have to do with investing as much as just curiosity. If Argyle is producing 90%-where are they? Since most pink diamonds I see are not marketed as Argyle. Is someone hoarding them all?

 

[kenny]

thanks, Kenny. I did a little more research on line and have found that the "make up" of argyle pinks ARE different than other pinks. So I think once you've seen the different types under high magnification-it would be relatively easy to determine if it's an Argyle, especially for an expert. But-my questions don't really have to do with investing as much as just curiosity. If Argyle is producing 90%-where are they? Since most pink diamonds I see are not marketed as Argyle. Is someone hoarding them all?

Yes, I am.
My bathtub is FULL of Argyle pink diamonds.
I bathe in them as I sip Champagne and nibble on caviar.

Seriously, they are for sale.
Maybe the vendors are not marketing them as Argyle pinks because they do not have the skill, confidence, and experiene to state the origin as Argyle.
They ain't sure and don't want to be sued.
I have seen many pinks on www.fancydiamonds.net that Leibish reports to be from Argyle which do not have an Argyle cert or inscription.
Personally I'd trust them - but my trust may prove meaningless to a buyer when I go to sell it in 20 years.

BTW I just called GIA in Carlsbad with your question. (You guys please feel free to call GIA; They don't bite.)
I was told that while GIA does offer country of origin determination on emeralds, rubies and sapphires and other gems, such service is not available for Fancy Colored Diamonds.
The reason I was given is, those other gems are formed closer to the surface of the earth so they often contain location-specific inclusions or other properties that help trace the gem to geographic locations.
Diamonds are formed deep in the mantle of the earth (and brought to the surface via volcanic pipes)
The mantle, being more homogeneous than the crust, does not impart location-specific properties to diamonds.

 

[kenny]

Here's an example of a pink diamond that Leibish says is from Argyle rough, though it has no Argyle cert or inscription.

http://www.fancydiamonds.net/view_diamonds/2519.htm

Perhaps taking a screen capture of Leibish's claim of Argyle origin (which I personally trust) and enjoying (what I assume to be) the lower price of a stone that Argyle itself did not put its name on is one way to get an Argyle stone at a good price since interest in Argyle pinks seems to be growing as the mine's output is declining.

 

[pinkjewel]

Kenny- I want to play in your Argyle tub!!!!

Well, that puts GIA out for determining origin. I'd bet Stephen Hofer would be able to determine origin of different FCDs. I noticed he does a week long class on FCDs- but it's 3500.00!!!!

Do you know what his FCD report costs? And has anyone seen his FCD reports and what type of info it includes? I've been looking for his book, but haven't been able to find a copy,yet.

So much to learn.... I find FCDs fascinating!

Expensive hobby-I think I may need to get a job

 

[kenny]

I never got one but a few years ago I called Hofer and asked what a report costs.
Back then IIRC correctly he said $300 or $400 or more depending on how much work he has to do and how in depth the client wants him to go.

I've learned a lot from his book, but it is so hard to find at a good price.
I think I paid near $225, which I thought was outrageous then but $225 would be a steal now.
It must be out of print with interesting FCDs growing.
I think working folks are finding out you don't have to have Liz Taylor's money to afford a nice FCD, as long as you can let go of the size thing.

You will occasionally see a very high-end FCD for sale with one of Hofer's reports in addition to the GIA report.

 

[pinkjewel]

I never got one but a few years ago I called Hofer and asked what a report costs.
Back then IIRC correctly he said $300 or $400 or more depending on how much work he has to do and how in depth the client wants him to go.

I've learned a lot from his book, but it is so hard to find at a good price.
I think I paid near $225, which I thought was outrageous then but $225 would be a steal now.
It must be out of print with interesting FCDs growing.
I think working folks are finding out you don't have to have Liz Taylor's money to afford a nice FCD, as long as you can let go of the size thing.

You will occasionally see a very high-end FCD for sale with one of Hofer's reports in addition to the GIA report.

That's a book that I'm going to keep looking for, but so far I've only seen one available and it was 1800 british pounds!!!!!

 

[kenny]

Yeah, a few months ago there was one on amazon for $1,850 USD and it's gone, so I assume someone paid that price.
None are available on Amazon now, but you can enter your name on a waiting list.

I cannot recommend this book highly enough but I'd have to be crazy or just pooping money to pay that much for it.

Instead of buying FCDs I should have bought a few cases of this book a few years back.

 

[Lupinbunny]

Argyle stopped certing their champagne diamonds a few years ago (quite a few years ago?) I was keen on getting one for my engagement ring, and asked my jeweller about getting old, still-certified stock. He said that wasn't really an option, but that most champagnes around were from Argyle (this may well be because I live in the same state as the Argyle mine. I wouldn't say it holds for worldwide), though he couldn't guarantee it.

My understanding (from my jeweller) is that most pinks are Argyle, just not with their name attached.

A company has recently started in WA (where the Argyle mine is) guaranteeing brown FCDs and colourless as having Western Australian origin. They're called... bah. Can't remember the name at all now. How annoying. If anyone's interested, post and I'll go past the jeweller where I saw them. Pretty sure they don't do pinks. Mostly aimed at the Asian tourism market, I think. Had some pretty stones.

 

[Rockdiamond]

According to the literature and articles I've read-90% of pink diamonds come from the Argyle mines. Which other mines produce pink diamonds? And why does it seem that most of the pink diamonds I see for sale are not stated as coming from the Argyle mines if they really are responsible for 90% production. Can GIA determine origin of a pink diamond? Or can another lab?

Since Argyle only certs or laser engraves a small portion of their diamonds, do you all think that some of the pinks being sold are Argyle pinks, but can't be identified as such because of lack of identification from Argyle?

great question PJ!
I'm skeptical about the 90% number- there's a lot of places n the world where pink diamonds may be mined.
In most cases, it's not possible to ascertain where a diamond was mined. The exceptions being the marketing like Argyle, or Canadian diamonds where the origins are purposefully made public
This is different than many other minerals that may have "tags" allowing geologists to determine origin.
I know it's the case with certain rubies whose origin can be determined by the nature of imperfection for example.
I have heard it said that the color is so different, argyle stones can be identified by the color alone.
I've also heard the tales of people that are reputed to be able to tell if a stone came from that mine based on visual clues.
But I would never pay the price of an Argyle with that sort of proof.
I've seen some remarkable Argyle stones- and the color was absolutely incredible.

Given the value of Argyle stones- identified by the inscription, and or certificate- you'd think that whatever they can identify at this point would be
I do believe that 5 years ago there was less importance placed on the trademark.
That means there's a lot of stones that came from the mine and were never marked as such

 

[pinkjewel]

thanks,RD. I am somewhat suspicious as to who started the phrase "90% of pink diamonds are from the Argyle mines". Could it be a marketing ploy from Argyle to create the frenzy to purchase an Argyle pink before the mine closes? I read where Rio Tinto is thinking of selling the Argyle mine. Wonder if there would be any takers with the hefty loss reported last year- mainly due to measures in place to move from open pit mining to underground.

I do notice a difference in color with Argyle pinks. They seem to be a "warmer" pink -with some shading even hinting at mauve in some of the lighter colors and no other mine seems to be able to replicate the deeper,intense color pinks from Argyle. I have also read that the color banding on Argyle pinks are closer together than in other pinks which is one way an FCD expert can tell origin.

Then there are the purer pinks-"cooler" colors which are more bubble gum and candy pink shades. I've read these are more likely to come from the Kimberly mines in South Africa.

Lots of info on the internet. The problem is trying to figure out which is fact and which is fiction.

 

[kenny]

Lots of info on the internet. The problem is trying to figure out which is fact and which is fiction.

Boy, you said a mouthful there, Pinkjewel.
Before the Internet most all of what we read was published.

There was a publishing company with a paid editor.
There were editorial standards, proofreaders and fact checkers.
Businesses, reputations, and careers were on the line.

I'm not saying everything published was pure and true and without a self-serving agenda, but it was easier to tell.

Today anyone with any motive can appear as anyone else and reach millions and say anything.
It is a blessing and a curse.

I LOVE the Internet, but you really DO have to be a critical thinker and consider the source more than before.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Lots of info on the internet. The problem is trying to figure out which is fact and which is fiction.

Boy, you said a mouthful there, Pinkjewel.
Before the Internet most all of what we read was published.

There was a publishing company with a paid editor.
There were editorial standards, proofreaders and fact checkers.
Businesses, reputations, and careers were on the line.

I'm not saying everything published was pure and true and without a self-serving agenda, but it was easier to tell.

Today anyone with any motive can appear as anyone else and reach millions and say anything.
It is a blessing and a curse.

I LOVE the Internet, but you really DO have to be a critical thinker and consider the source more than before.

this is SOOOOO true Kenny!
We've found that if a person has some sort of personal vendetta- having nothing to do with a given business' ethics, products, representation, or customer satisfaction- they can expend a lot of efforts attempting to tarnish that business with nothing whatsoever to back it up.

Or, 20 dedicated "fans" can continually "plug" a given business to the extent accuracy, impartiality and truth goes out the window.
In both cases, consumers loose.