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Palagems only for Trade?

minousbijoux

Super_Ideal_Rock
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It is true that Pala's prices are higher than most to begin with and then there will be some markup by your jeweler - how much depends on your jeweler; the relationship you and the jeweler have; and whether they will get any further benefit from making you the setting to go with the stone. But there is no other way to buy from Pala. Do you have any jeweler friends?
 

Deathspi

Shiny_Rock
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Does anyone know why Pala only sell to people in the trade? Surly they would be financially worse off doing this?
 

chrono

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It is much easier to deal with trade members than directly with the public. Fewer people, less hassle and trade people already understand gemstones (no endless request for hand shots or videos, questions about this or that colour, cut or other noob questions).
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Chrono|1361680220|3389056 said:
It is much easier to deal with trade members than directly with the public. Fewer people, less hassle and trade people already understand gemstones (no endless request for hand shots or videos, questions about this or that colour, cut or other noob questions).

I wish I could draw my own smiley face here, Chrono. I don't like the pre-fab emoticons! Well...except for the halo.

Deb
:saint:
 

Lady_Disdain

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Chrono|1361680220|3389056 said:
It is much easier to deal with trade members than directly with the public. Fewer people, less hassle and trade people already understand gemstones (no endless request for hand shots or videos, questions about this or that colour, cut or other noob questions).

Not only that but it is also a relationship move. Most of the large retailers aren't happy if their suppliers sell directly to the public, as that would impact their own business, or even if the prices they pay are made public (since the public would then expect to pay that price and forget that they also have to pay for handshots, retail location, personalized support, etc). Small, independent dealers can sell directly to the public, as they don't have large accounts to lose. Larger dealers, however, do have large accounts to lose and it would require a very large retail operation to cover that.

Between those and the issues Chrono raised, they remain trade only. That is also why some of the large shows in Tucson require a business tax id to enter.

The same thing happens in the car industry. You can't call Ford and buy a car directly. Those "industry prices" that are published? Mostly inflated (aka, that would be price a distributor might pay if they are buying a single car for the very first time. Every other distributor has volume discounts, loyalty discounts, payment options, etc). And we all know that people go to buy cars with that number in mind and bargain down to that goal. If the larger, more important fine gem dealers were open to the public and had public pricing, the same thing could happen and the retailers wouldn't be happy.
 

pregcurious

Ideal_Rock
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The time not spent on answering endless emails for an online business, or all the overhead of a brick and mortar store make to-the-trade only worth it. Noob posts about X stone are a good example.
 

chrono

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If you knew trade prices, you'll never buy gemstones again.
 

pregcurious

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When I retire, I am seriously considering going into the jewelry trade as a hobby. For now, that's a long time away.
 

cookies

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I was once very interested in a gemstone that was available on Pala's website. I emailed Pala to ask for more details and pictures. After some email exchange, Pala gave me a quote (I am not in the trade). It was quite high, so I emailed around, asking some of their retailers for more quotes, on that same stone. I was surprised that their retailers' quotes were lower.

I totally agree with Chrono that the trade price is ridiculously low, compared to retail. I know this from an incident that happened a few years ago. One retailer emailed me pictures of some stones, and accidentally attached the PDF file that had the trade price of each stone!
 

chrono

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I've known at least 2 or 3 vendors to quote the same stone from Pala for very different pricing. When I inquired, Pala was very clear that they will only quote to the Trade. I was also given the trade price by accident once which is how I became aware of the mark up. I understand the reason for it but its still a sticker shock and eye opener.
 

royalstarrynight

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I wonder if that markup is much like restaurant markup (Food costs should be 50% of the bill you pay)..

Do you remember remote percentages?
 

chrono

Super_Ideal_Rock
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I am not comfortable with posting the percentage.
 

Lady_Disdain

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Cookie|1361888080|3390786 said:
I was once very interested in a gemstone that was available on Pala's website. I emailed Pala to ask for more details and pictures. After some email exchange, Pala gave me a quote (I am not in the trade). It was quite high, so I emailed around, asking some of their retailers for more quotes, on that same stone. I was surprised that their retailers' quotes were lower.

I totally agree with Chrono that the trade price is ridiculously low, compared to retail. I know this from an incident that happened a few years ago. One retailer emailed me pictures of some stones, and accidentally attached the PDF file that had the trade price of each stone!

My guess is that the relationship between vendors and Pala was different. If one did a large volume of business with Pala while another was contacting them for the first time, the prices for each would be different. This is very much a relationships market.

If I wanted something from Pala, I know I would talk to someone like Pearlmans (large volume of fine jewelry) instead of a small jeweler.
 

PrecisionGem

Brilliant_Rock
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Selling both wholesale to the trade, and retail to people not in the trade can present problems. Once you start posting prices, you have pretty much cut out anyone in the trade from buying the stone. People are in business to make some money, so a jeweler has to mark up the stone, or there would be no reason for them to buy it. Initially I only sold to jewelers. Once I started posting prices on the website they told me they couldn't buy from the site. The stones I now sell to jewelers are never first posted on the site.

Some cutters deal exclusively with jewelers, and offer what's called "round table" events. When you by a stone at one of these events, the jeweler marks the price of the stones up, and is also hoping to make some money by setting the stone. to then also sell at lower prices directly to the public could jeopardize their relationship with the jewelers. I see some people are doing this now, and I'm not sure how they are working around this.
 

Richard M.

Brilliant_Rock
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I'm a dealer for Pala and can assure you their prices are the same to all. Prices to consumers are set by the retailer, not Pala, and depend on that company's mark-up requirements. If a jeweler has very high overhead (location costs, insurance, payroll, electricity, heating, advertising etc.) the mark-up will be greater than that of a small dealer with low overhead. Of course if there is considerable time and labor involved in making the sale (photography, time spent emailing, extra requests made by the client etc.) that time will be reflected in the dealer's mark-up.

From my standpoint as an on-line dealer working mainly by mail, trying to retail Pala's stones is almost never worth the hassle. They usually send me stones for a week only. That's too short a time to show them to any but local clients. And the real stinger is that if I fail to return stones on time, I have to buy them whether I want them or not.

If you wish to buy from Pala's very fine inventory it's best to do it through your local brick-and-mortar jeweler. That's where the "volume" part comes into play. A dealer who sells a lot of Pala's stones may be able to arrange extra time for a buyer to get an appraisal, a report from AGL or make other arrangements.

Richard M. (Rick Martin)
 

JewelFreak

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Richard M. said:
And the real stinger is that if I fail to return stones on time, I have to buy them whether I want them or not.
Richard M. (Rick Martin)
Wow! Hardball. You can only get away with that if you have a lot of market muscle.

--- Laurie
 

Richard M.

Brilliant_Rock
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JewelFreak|1361914120|3391121 said:
Richard M. said:
And the real stinger is that if I fail to return stones on time, I have to buy them whether I want them or not.
Richard M. (Rick Martin)
Wow! Hardball. You can only get away with that if you have a lot of market muscle.

--- Laurie
Pala has prodigious "market muscle." But Trade memos, as they're called, have definite rules and they're pretty much the same from supplier to supplier. There's usually a written agreement that says if stones are lost, damaged or not returned by an agreed time they automatically become the retailer's property/responsibility. There's often some flexibility depending on the relationship and communications between supplier and seller (and the retailer's Jeweler's Board of Trade rating) but in most cases both parties know the rules and stick to them.

From the supplier's POV, if returns aren't made on time chances of sale to another party are lost. The supplier needs the ability to tell others inquiring about the stone that it will be returned by a certain date and will be shipped to them on memo for their customer unless it sells before that. Retailers respect the arrangement because it provides them the opportunity to show, and possibly sell, goods they don't own outright.

Richard M. (Rick Martin)
 

royalstarrynight

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Chrono said:
I am not comfortable with posting the percentage.
Oops. Forgive me for inquiring. I just find the economics standpoint remarkably fascinating and it probably also explains why store to store markups vary so drastically since there's so much space to play.

I just had a lot of fun shopping for stuller findings and pieces going from different B&M and online vendors, and the percentages of differences were stunningly interesting. Best yet was a chain that told me that they gave "very reasonable" prices which were several times over 100% off from other quotes.

However, I do get that some of these vendors live and die by relationships, which might explain why mom and pop stores have unique pricing philosophies.

I feel like the gems industry could play out a really cool case study for both economic and sociological purposes.

PrecisionGem said:
Selling both wholesale to the trade, and retail to people not in the trade can present problems. Once you start posting prices, you have pretty much cut out anyone in the trade from buying the stone. People are in business to make some money, so a jeweler has to mark up the stone, or there would be no reason for them to buy it. Initially I only sold to jewelers. Once I started posting prices on the website they told me they couldn't buy from the site. The stones I now sell to jewelers are never first posted on the site.

Gene, Just out of curiosity how do you decide which stones go to jewelers and which go retail? Are the trade stones usually orders? It's ok if you don't answer if I've hit another touchy subject. I guess there also may be no hard and fast rule as well.
 

PrecisionGem

Brilliant_Rock
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Royalstarynight, the stones that go to members of the trade are often special requests. Or there are some jewelers who I know like certain types of stones, and one I cut one that fits, I'll send a picture to them before posting it on the site.

Years ago when I was in school, I had a part time job working in a shoe store. We sold name brand, high end shoes. The manufactures like the sales people to wear their shoes, so I could buy shoes at factory cost often. Typically I'd bay $12 to $18 for a pair of mens Florsheim shoes that would retail in the store for $85. A retail store needs to be able to make some money on a product or they couldn't be in existence. With the advent of the internet, this has become more and more difficult for retailers. The down side is you have lost that one on one contact, and the ability to actually hold the product in your hand, try it on etc.
 

aaronl

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royalstarrynight|1361894623|3390836 said:
I wonder if that markup is much like restaurant markup (Food costs should be 50% of the bill you pay).

Do you remember remote percentages?
I doubt that one vendor's percentage is going to be particularly useful, even if it were shared, as the guy "down the block" might use a completely different figure.

In fast food, the goal is usually to keep the food cost at @25% and the labor cost at @25%. Unless we're including the labor cost of preparation, even in the context of fine dining it would be difficult for a restaurant to turn a sustainable profit if food costs were 50%.
royalstarrynight|1361961563|3391637 said:
I just find the economics standpoint remarkably fascinating and it probably also explains why store to store markups vary so drastically since there's so much space to play....

I feel like the gems industry could play out a really cool case study for both economic and sociological purposes.
Even with the markups, I don't sense that most retail jewelers are raking in the bucks these days. The retail jewelry market seems saturated. I heard a retiring jeweler joke a couple of years ago that he had to leave the business because he couldn't live on $125 per week. At least, I think he was joking. (At the same time, one of the big donors for my undergraduate institution is a jeweler who owns five or six regional stores and seems to be raking in money.)

I agree that the psychology and sociology (and economics) of jewelry marketing and sales would be a fascinating subject for study. I started to read this forum after my wife saw a ring she liked (but that I "absolutely should not buy for her" - i.e., it can't be her idea), and am grateful for you folks for helping to close some of the knowledge disparity between what jewelers know (and mostly won't tell you) about their wares and what you need to know to be an informed consumer.
 

royalstarrynight

Shiny_Rock
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Gene and aaroni,

This may be completely against what most PSers think but I do think B&M, middlemen and retailers have their place in the business.
Is it the least costly and efficient to the end user? I think it depends on the user. For someone who isn't willing to do the homework, it's a great and convenient way to make a purchase.
For those a tad bit more savy and willing to do an internet search, their place probably is diminishing.

Jewelry fits into the luxury and elastic market, which means they are probably more sensitive to market fluctuations especially with gold and other metal prices constantly rolling upward. I don't think B&M, middlemen and retailers are always rolling in dough but it's fun to understand the dynamics.

I think a lot of us would be sad if there were no reliable B&M locations to set our stones into LOGR settings!
 

chrono

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Whilst it is certainly convenient to shop for coloured gems at a local store, the selection is pitiful and the quality is disappointing. Unless one sticks to blue sapphires, few offer anything else beyond the usual amethyst, citrine, blue topaz and the like. Worse yet, many local jewellers know far less than CSers about coloured stones. Those that offer higher quality gems and more variety also charge far more than what most regular shoppers are willing to pay.
 

royalstarrynight

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Chrono said:
Whilst it is certainly convenient to shop for coloured gems at a local store, the selection is pitiful and the quality is disappointing. Unless one sticks to blue sapphires, few offer anything else beyond the usual amethyst, citrine, blue topaz and the like. Worse yet, many local jewellers know far less than CSers about coloured stones. Those that offer higher quality gems and more variety also charge far more than what most regular shoppers are willing to pay.

That is probably very true. I'm not recommending consumers to shop there. Just I suspect there are some (that are clearly not on this site) who would be sad if they went away. I'm not encouraging people to be ripped off but there is an accessibility issue of CS as well.

I suspect a lot of people also love instant gratification which online shopping is not conducive of. I'm sure there are plenty of desperate xmas shopping men who love B&M stores. These retailers have their place but their sector is shrinking especially for CS for a very logical reason.
 

chrono

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RSN,
I understand what you mean. :)) I only wish that local stores carry better selection too as it would be great to see the stones right there and have gift choices in a time crunch.
 

royalstarrynight

Shiny_Rock
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Oct 29, 2012
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Me too! I had never knew how beautiful CS stones were until PS!

Cruise ships always sold what I had originally thought was top of the line since they were so "informed". Then again the sales lady made classic mistakes such as "sapphires come in ALL COLORS. Red, blue, yellow, green" and " sapphires are supposed to be dark dark blue" and the famous "tanzanites are going to run out in 10 years!!! Great investment!"

End threadjack. At least on my part.
 

bcavitt

Shiny_Rock
Trade
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Mar 6, 2012
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I can't speak for all B&M stores, but it seems to me that if the owner/buyer of the store is a CS enthusiast, then you stand a better chance of finding a good selection of CS than one that isn't. IMHO, there are far more people who like diamond jewelry than colored stone jewelry so that's where stores put their inventory money. You just have to find a jeweler who loves CS as much as you.

Bryan Cavitt
Images Jewelers
 

minousbijoux

Super_Ideal_Rock
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bcavitt|1362063882|3392565 said:
I can't speak for all B&M stores, but it seems to me that if the owner/buyer of the store is a CS enthusiast, then you stand a better chance of finding a good selection of CS than one that isn't. IMHO, there are far more people who like diamond jewelry than colored stone jewelry so that's where stores put their inventory money. You just have to find a jeweler who loves CS as much as you.

You hope you find one and even then pray that their prices are decent or even competitive, which IMO, they rarely are...
 

MustangGal

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There are a few B&Ms with nice gemstones, the mom & pop I have do my benchwork is one. I got to play with a beautiful $10k alexandrite once, and he's had some intersing precision cut stones in the cases too. He even gets excited to see what I drag in to be set, and chats about the stones with me. I agree that's it's more what the owner's interests are.
 
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