Overwhelmed looking for a high quality sapphire

LD · Oct 13, 2012

Can I show you my precision cut oval that has the most phenomenal half/half? This MAKES the gemstone and I believe, as Michael has said, it's caused by the cutting/lighting! I adore this stone.

In general if you have a dark gemstone and one half blacks out - then it makes the stone less attractive but it's not a reflection or indication of a poor cut. Some people don't like to see such a dramatic difference when viewing a stone so this may rule it out from a performance/likeability issue.

Sebas, I have lots of ovals but not blue sapphires I'm afraid so can't help.

LD · Oct 13, 2012

Oooops I've lied! I have 2 oval blue sapphires and have just looked at them. Neither have the half/half but both have cut issues (one has a noticeable window) and the other has a crooked culet. So perhaps if you sacrifice one thing you may get something else you don't want!!!!!

sebas · Oct 13, 2012

LD > I'm so glad you wrote. I wouldn't care about a crooked cutlet at all. A small window would also be preferable over the half/half effect. Any chance you could put a picture or video of the blue sapphires you have to show no half/half? (try to make it look as dramatic as possible... don't look for the perfect angle that minimizes the half/half).

LD · Oct 13, 2012

Sebas, at the moment we are not allowed to post videos of our own personal items I'm afraid

Seeing a photo of an oval that doesn't have the half/half is actually meaningless because you're looking for one and need to find it - it's not about what we have! The stones exist - they absolutely do BUT you are looking for a high quality sapphire and unless you have lots of cash, there may always be a compromise. It sounds to me like colour and consistency of colour (as far as possible) is important and so when you're searching this is what you should tell vendors. Tell them you're extremely sensitive to extinction. The other issue is that you need to understand (and I think you do) that every single sapphire will change colour either delicately or very strongly in daylight and incandescent lighting. So, if colour is the key for you, you need to bear that in mind and make sure you evaluate the stone in ALL lighting conditions.

As I don't have a photograph of my blue sapphires, will my purple one do instead? You can see in these photos that the colour changes depending on the light! This is overall a poorly cut stone but I hope you understand why I bought it!

BTW I do have a blue sapphire round that is phenomenal - an exceptionally bad cut BUT I bought this for the colour!

chrono · Oct 13, 2012

sebas · Oct 13, 2012

Thanks for the pictures. Beautiful settings!

LD > The blue round has exceptional color!

Michael_E · Oct 13, 2012

Chrono|1350087342|3284203 said:
Michael,
Then answer me this: why do I have other precision cut ovals that do not show this shadowing? Why must the stone need a specific lighting condition in order to look good? Why must I have to work so hard to make the stone's coloration even? This does not make any sense to me at all.

Hi Chrono,
My previous comment was not meant to imply anything negative about what you have said, so please forgive any implication if you felt that way. My comments were meant to imply that you just can't tell precisely what is going on from pictures.

The half and half effect is something that ALL stones will show under the right, (or wrong), lighting conditions. Some cut styles are not so sensitive because the angles from which they accept, and then reflect, light are wider than with other stones. What I am saying is that you can't tell from a picture, or even a video, how well any particular stone is at avoiding the effect, (since ALL stones will show this effect under the certain lighting conditions and the people taking the shots may not be aware of this).

By the same token, a stone which looks fabulous in pictures or video may not look so grand once it is in your hand and away from the controlled lighting used to show it to it's best advantage. The best that I think that can be said about stones showing this half and half effect in pictures is that the potential buyer NEEDS to have them in hand and view them under many different lighting conditions before making a cut quality decision. I would also caution people that great looking images don't necessarily mean that the stone will be that fine looking all of the time. The only thing that a stone can reflect is the light around it and if that light is not suitable for a good display, then the stone will not look so great either.

LD · Oct 13, 2012

Sebas may I ask why you've returned stone #1 please?

In the video it looks like it has great colour most of the time. As you move it around, yes it had some extinction but the main focus of the stone was still the vibrant blue. The only time it appeared to grey out (forget about the extinction) was, as Minou identified, about half way through the video. The lighting appeared to change and my reservation would be, did you see the greying in real life OR was it a trick of the camera as the lighting changed (this can happen). Finding an oval with this gorgeous blue that is present the majority of the time (if it was) will be challenging to replicate.

Stone #2 by contrast had wayyyyyyy too much black for my taste but I think this is because overall the stone was darker.

I don't know how many stones you've purchased but if you can, within any returns policy, it's sometimes good to live with the stone for at least a few days. Sometimes, their appeal is a slow burn!

sebas · Oct 13, 2012

I did a test just now at 12pm on a sunny day in my patio. I just walked around the patio and the color looked very different in different spots with some spots showing the half/half effect and other spots not showing it. I kept the camera angle and sapphire position on my hand constant. In other words, no half/half in some spots and half/half in others. This might be as good as one can achieve. It might not be possible to achieve no half/half under 75%+ conditions for a bright blue sapphire (with the exception of possibly a round sapphire). This might not be the case for other gems.

I have to agree that the camera (at least the one I have on my iPhone) does not depict the true color or sparkle of the sapphire and one video or picture cannot capture how it behaves throughout the day or even at the same time under different shades. I can probably post the same sapphire under these different conditions and it would invoke love at first sight or a lukewarm response. For this reason, it is hard online and even at a local jeweler to appreciate the differences between two very fine sapphires. I think that all one can conclude in a jewelry store is whether the sapphire has windowing and whether the color is saturated/intense. The rest has to be done outside under different conditions over the course of a few days.

sebas · Oct 13, 2012

LD > I think you are right. I should have kept #1 for a few days. The videos make it look prettier. I think what threw me off is that the half/half effect, which was less noticeable in #2. #2 was also the previously preferred sapphire. I'm a little bit shy to ask the vendor for #1 again since I returned it and don't want to cause so much trouble.

sebas · Oct 13, 2012

I can order the following (3 and 4), are they as good or better than #1 or #2 previously shown (I am now restricting myself to one jeweler so I'd prefer not to shop around):

3. http://youtu.be/JS2xPw7tpNA

4. http://youtu.be/lgKNPiVUE5I (the one on the right, mixed brilliant cushion)

#1 previous: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ngn11ST_yjY&feature=youtu.be

#2 previous: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAFnUb-1sSQ&feature=relmfu

this is the one that I wish I had gotten, but was sold in the 2-3 days that I hesitated: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Sw3zwHH9PE

LD · Oct 13, 2012

DO NOT BE SHY TO GET #1 BACK. Seriously, the vendor won't mind. After all it's a potential sale. For me it had much much much more about it than #2.

#3 is very dark with lots of darker areas AND I suspect it may also be a little more grey than #1 or #2.

#4 looks ok BUT there is minimal movement in the video. Right at the end the hand moves. It looks ok and might be worth a look but ..........

#1 is still the best for me based on the videos but at the end of the day you've got to chose something you'll live with.

sebas · Oct 13, 2012

LD > what effect does a halo have on the sapphire? Does it lighten it? Increase sparkle?

Starzin · Oct 13, 2012

LD: Gah woman! Only you could find a "half 'n half" like that garnet! Wanna swap my windowed, h/h for it? I'll pay postage.

That's an absolute fireball. I know exactly what colours it's showing because I saw one a couple of months ago that had them sparkling around the stone and I was gaga. The jeweller let me walk outside with it and it died into a dark red blob

And despite the cut issues on the others, the colour overrides all. They're gorgeous. Thanks for showing!

Sebas: I think #1 still has it also out of this group but I also like the cushion though the colour doesn't seem to be as saturated as #1, that could be the crystal - sleepy over sparkly. however it would be nice to see that on the hand to compare apples with apples. Is that the same one as before?

By-the-by...is that your intended's hand? Which one does she like? Which one does her heart connect to? It's fine for us to say we like this one over that but she has to wear it. Maybe it's time to bite the bullet and take one home for a few days if you are definitely going to buy from this jeweller he shouldn't have any objection - return policy in place of course.

LD · Oct 13, 2012

No. The only effect I find is that you have a contrasting colour and so the overall "sparkle" of the ring has more dimensions. One thing to bear in mind when you're buying a stone is that normally a stone, once set, will darken a little. This is because the majority of settings enclose a stone and the amount of light (from all angles) is reduced. The darkening will depend on the setting. For some stones it's minimal but if you start with a dark stone you may not like the finished result. It's not the same as putting a stone in a ring holder because that's just tiny bits of metal.

Putting the stone between the crack of two fingers will give a similar effect to how it will look once set although this typically blocks out nearly all light.

HTH

LD · Oct 13, 2012

Starzin|1350163836|3284702 said:
LD: Gah woman! Only you could find a "half 'n half" like that garnet! Wanna swap my windowed, h/h for it? I'll pay postage. That's an absolute fireball. I know exactly what colours it's showing because I saw one a couple of months ago that had them sparkling around the stone and I was gaga. The jeweller let me walk outside with it and it died into a dark red blob And despite the cut issues on the others, the colour overrides all. They're gorgeous. Thanks for showing!

Sebas: I think #1 still has it also out of this group but I also like the cushion though the colour doesn't seem to be as saturated as #1, that could be the crystal - sleepy over sparkly. however it would be nice to see that on the hand to compare apples with apples. Is that the same one as before?

What a very generous offer Starzin but I must respectfully decline!

Sorry to hear about the red blob - that's not good. Interestingly, this one can look more purple in daylight. I think there's a thread on it somewhere because I couldn't stop taking photos of it because it's like a chameleon! For a long time it was the gem photographed by Gene that you clicked on to get to the garnets on his webpage - not sure if it still is or not.

gemseeker2012 · Oct 14, 2012

I know you're trying to go with a local vendor and I'm not even sure if you're interested in non-ovals, but I thought this was an attractive stone (for whatever that is worth!)

http://www.torraca.net/gems.php?search=gid&for=Sap611&t=Blue%20Sapphire

Jereni · Oct 14, 2012

gemseeker2012|1350250768|3285147 said:
I know you're trying to go with a local vendor and I'm not even sure if you're interested in non-ovals, but I thought this was an attractive stone (for whatever that is worth!)

http://www.torraca.net/gems.php?search=gid&for=Sap611&t=Blue%20Sapphire

Oooh, gorgeous tone on that sapphire...

Starzin · Oct 14, 2012

LD said:
What a very generous offer Starzin but I must respectfully decline! Sorry to hear about the red blob - that's not good. Interestingly, this one can look more purple in daylight. I think there's a thread on it somewhere because I couldn't stop taking photos of it because it's like a chameleon! For a long time it was the gem photographed by Gene that you clicked on to get to the garnets on his webpage - not sure if it still is or not.

*sigh*
I have to say that inside you would have thought the one I saw was sphene gone wrong - it truly was unbelievable but yours is obviously even better! I'll have a looksee for the thread and on Gene's site (sorry I didn't see this reply earlier).

sebas · Oct 14, 2012

#4 video that shows a cushion also has a brilliant emerald cut with similar tone. Those were the two that were highly recommended, but it seems a bit dark to me... ?

chrono · Oct 15, 2012

Michael_E|1350150528|3284579 said:
Hi Chrono,
My previous comment was not meant to imply anything negative about what you have said, so please forgive any implication if you felt that way. My comments were meant to imply that you just can't tell precisely what is going on from pictures.

The half and half effect is something that ALL stones will show under the right, (or wrong), lighting conditions. Some cut styles are not so sensitive because the angles from which they accept, and then reflect, light are wider than with other stones. What I am saying is that you can't tell from a picture, or even a video, how well any particular stone is at avoiding the effect, (since ALL stones will show this effect under the certain lighting conditions and the people taking the shots may not be aware of this).

By the same token, a stone which looks fabulous in pictures or video may not look so grand once it is in your hand and away from the controlled lighting used to show it to it's best advantage. The best that I think that can be said about stones showing this half and half effect in pictures is that the potential buyer NEEDS to have them in hand and view them under many different lighting conditions before making a cut quality decision. I would also caution people that great looking images don't necessarily mean that the stone will be that fine looking all of the time. The only thing that a stone can reflect is the light around it and if that light is not suitable for a good display, then the stone will not look so great either.

I did not take your comment personally nor was my reply meant to be so as well. The "I" I used was a general "I", not myself personally for the most part. I agree that this effect tends to show up more strongly or less strongly under certain lighting conditions, which is why I always advise the buyer to view the stone under as many different lighting conditions as possible. This way, there is no controlled lighting to show it to its best advantage. Again, I always stress seeing the stone in person to make the final desicion. On all this three points, we are in agreement.

chrono · Oct 15, 2012

Of all 4; here's my choice in order of preference:
Previous #1 - best colour that stays consistent. Yes, I still see the darkerning effect, which is pronounced at times and less so at other times.
Previous #2 - nice colour too but doesn't hold a candle to Previous #1
Stone #3 - looks to have a lot of dark areas athough the violetish blue areas are pretty. Possibly some gray but certainly not up to par to Previous #1 and Previous #2.
Stone #4 - too static and too far away to make any fair comments.

Do not feel shy about approaching vendor #1 again if you feel that sapphire is the one for you. Trust me, he'll be happy to get your money.

chrono · Oct 15, 2012

sebas|1350161744|3284685 said:
LD > what effect does a halo have on the sapphire? Does it lighten it? Increase sparkle?

Not LD but since I'm chatty, I'll throw in my 2 cents as well.

A halo does not lighten a stone, if anything, at best it stays the same, at worst it darkens a little. The more enclosed the halo (busy or closed undergallery), the higher the chance of darkening the tone. What the halo does well is to provide contrast (white against a dark blue) and a lot of sparkle (multicolour flashes), thereby making the sapphire the star of the ring. It does not increase the sparkle of the sapphire.

T L · Oct 15, 2012

Michael_E|1350074773|3284064 said:
sebas|1349670505|3281328 said:

Chrono> bummer. I would like to find one with no half/half extinction. :-/

I am surprised you guys preferred 1 over 2 given the more noticeable half/half extinction...

Click to expand...

Half and half extinction? If you mention this in a group of professionals, they would either laugh you out of the room or take pity on you and explain that the half and half extinction that seems to bother so many people on this forum is actually a good thing and shows that the stone has a relatively symmetrical pavilion. The half and half effect comes from the lighting in the room. The videos shown have a window on one side of the room where most of the light is coming from. Since it's entering the stone from one side it can only exit from the other side. If the images were taken with the stone facing the window, that half and half effect would disappear. A better way to view, or photograph, a stone is under evenly lit conditions, ( the least expensive of which is out side on a bright overcast day). Please don't use this half and half deal to assess the cut quality of a gem, since it is the wrong way to look at this effect.

I respectfully disagree. A precision cut gem is supposed to provide the best light return, so half/half stones don't fit the bill. I don't mind half/half extinction if I'm not paying a cutting premium, but if I am, it better not be so evident. I had a half/half stone cut by an award winning lapidary, and it always showed this extinction, no matter what lighting I was in, or where I placed my hand. I eventually sold it because I was so dismayed with the cutting for the price I paid.

sebas · Oct 16, 2012

This is what a respected precision cutter said to me about the half/half shadow effect seen on ovals:

"What you are observing in the video is not avoidable in any design at that tone. You're actually seeing shadow reflected. It's most easily seen in emerald cuts when viewed straight-on with a light at your back -- you'll see black across the middle of the stone because it's reflecting the shadow of your head blocking the light. Generally, we call this "head shadow", but any time the light reflected from a gemstone does not reach our eyes, it will appear black.

Custom cutting can reduce this effect, but it can't eliminate it because we never view a stone with perfect illumination from all sides. When you tilt the stone, you will pick up some shadow or, put another way, the light being reflected through or off the stone will be directed away from the your view.

With reflectors and proper lighting, I can eliminate that effect in a photograph. Similarly, in that video with the three stones in your hand the best color is seen in indirect lighting where the stones are tilted very slightly away from your direct line of sight. They're reflecting more of the ambient light & less of your or surrounding shadow.

In direct sunlight (or any hard light), even the best cut stones will show large areas of black -- because both the light and shadows are stronger (if a shadow can be called "strong".) However, some gem species do seem to more susceptible to this than others -- especially garnets, sapphires and spinels.

Lighter toned stones don't really avoid this effect, but because they're lighter toned to begin with, the shadowed part of the stone does not appear black.

If this doesn't make sense, feel free to let me know. I haven't really had someone ask this question this way before and would be very happy to clarify if need be."

I am not sure this adds anymore to our understanding other than he thinks that even a precision cut would not eliminate a half/half shadow effect and that it happens in all designs (sounds like all shapes).

pregcurious · Oct 16, 2012

I like #1 the best still. I agree with the previous posters that it has the best color.

Even though I didn't vote for #3 on page 5, I have to say that I bought a red spinel from Bruce Bridges, and I think he's a great vendor.

sebas · Oct 16, 2012

Bruce is no doubt a great vendor. He has been very helpful.

chrono · Oct 17, 2012

I have to disagree with the professional opinion of the respected lapidary. Head reflection or head shadow is only observable when the stone is veiwed up very close to the face. It is an effect seen in all shaped stones when your head casts a shadow onto the stone. The darkness seen across the middle of emerald cuts are sometimes called a bow-tie, due to a combination of cutting and light play (we discussed this earlier with Richard Hughes' explanation in a previous link). You should not see this effect from an arm's length away, which is why I advised making sure you don't video the stone too close to the camera.

Discussion with various experts and lapidaries on the same topic:
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/how-much-head-reflection-is-acceptable.165443/#post-3014437#p3014437']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/how-much-head-reflection-is-acceptable.165443/#post-3014437#p3014437[/URL]
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/extinction.154628/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/extinction.154628/[/URL]

GAatloDesigns · Oct 17, 2012

We've been following this discussion closely. There are perfectly cut sapphires for very high prices and there are also poorly cut sapphires for very high prices. The question is the value of the gem and that the price is reasonable for the quality you desire and there has to be a compromise at some point, especially with a budget.
We suggest perhaps you might consider a non-traditionally cut oval sapphire. A link is attached for your consideration.

http://www.g3gems.com/

This is the website of multiple AGTA Cutting Edge Award winner Mark Gronlund. Mark's method of cutting produces no half/half extinction which seems to be the main issue.
We don't worry about very small inclusions that can only be seen under 10x magnification, but we care about eye visable inclusions. If the sapphire is windowed, then it should be appropriately priced to reflect this condition, and not priced as if if had no window.

Many jewelers have access to Mark's inventory and we are sure if you contact them, he can check what he currently has in his inventory in ovals. We are sure there are more than what is shown on the website. You should contact the local jewelers you have currently been working with if you are interested in this alternative.

chrono · Oct 17, 2012

I agree that concave faceting seems to not experience this 1/2 shadowing effect. Unfortunately, it seems, at least on PS, that it's a love it or hate it cut design with hardly any middle ground. It's very different look which is splintery and shimmery (some might call it static), rather than the traditional big, bold and flashy.

ETA,
Thank you for chiming in. Although CS seems a very opiniated forum at times, we do welcome other points of view.

Overwhelmed looking for a high quality sapphire

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