Opinions on this Ruby

[epgs]

Hi PSers,

I always try to buy the best in my budget and would love to hear what your thoughts are on this ruby?

Price is around 6000 for a 1ct ruby. My main concern is the (H)b grade from GRS. How does that affect value? What are your thoughts?

Thanks, I am excited to hear from you all. Vendor photos only.

 

[chrono]

Any idea how accurate the hand shots are? As it stands, it looks far from vivid or even strongly saturated; I would have guessed a regular red spinel. I cannot read the report clearly but does it fluorescence?

 

[T L]

Looks like a Thai ruby, not very saturated, some areas of extinction, and did you check if it even fluoresces? Just remember, that simply because a stone is from Burma, doesn't mean it's always top quality. There are many average rubies coming out of that area as well. I would have guessed it was Thai based on the photos. If the photos are accurate, I think the seller is pricing based on the origin rather than the actual quality of the gem.

It really doesn't appear to look "vivid" (pigeon blood red) as the GRS memo states. I really dislike those GRS descriptors - too vague and metaphoric.

Based on the photos, if they're accurate, there is no way I would pay $6K for that stone. It looks "orangy red" with moderate saturation, and medium dark tone. The fact that it's heated with some clarity enhancement, puts me off further. I can accept heat, but I don't care for clarity residue if I'm paying that much for an orangy red corundum.

Here's what a nice Burmese ruby should look like, and notice the color coverage, and lack of extinction next to the stone you showed (now this is VIVID). My advice to you would be that if you like that color above, that's fine, but try to find rubies that are sourced in other locations, so you're not paying for an origin. Fine Burmese rubies are extremely expensive, and if you get a lower grade one, you're simply paying more for the origin.

 

[eastjavaman]

Ah, this is one of those interesting question. For treatment with H(b) will definitely lower the price. The description from GRS as pigeon blood is at times...well...not sure what to say. Both TL anc Chrono are right that this ruby looks like thai or red spineldue to blackish dark red, but again if GRS described it as Burmese, it may be right, silk will normally provide extra indication, but definitely not top color despite the PB description as it lacks fluorescence.

 

[T L]

Ah, this is one of those interesting question. For treatment with H(b) will definitely lower the price. The description from GRS as pigeon blood is at times...well...not sure what to say. Both TL anc Chrono are right that this ruby looks like thai or red spineldue to blackish dark red, but again if GRS described it as Burmese, it may be right, silk will normally provide extra indication, but definitely not top color despite the PB description as it lacks fluorescence.

Well a one carat top color Burmese ruby with heat would probably costs $10K +. If I'm buying a Burmese ruby, I want all the qualities that they're famous for, otherwise it could look like any other ruby from any other locale.

 

[colorchange]

That’s one of my specialty here, so to put it in a few words: you are most likely looking at a treated Mong Hsu, when everyone wants an untreated Mogok. Two completely different types of rubies, though both occur in Burma. Two different prices, though Mong Hsu is overpriced (mainly because uneducated clients see it simply as Burmese).

As for the pigeon blood red, first it doesn’t add that much value, except on an already great ruby, second, it should adds a lot more if from GIA or SSEF. Having said that, you shouldn’t buy a 1 Ct unheated ruby just because it’s a pigeon blood red on GIA certificate, they still can be quite cheap, and not all that attractive. I indeed trade quite a few of these, because it impresses clients in jewellery (unheated, pigeon blood red from a top occidental lab).

Regarding treatment, again, the H(b) lowers value massively compared to H(a), which is worth already a good deal less than H, which is worth massively less than “unheated”. And that is especially true in smaller rubies, as there is less of a justification for treatment when there is a number of good untreated rubies around in those weight.
Between H(b) and unheated, we are typically looking at 1 to 3, in the case of a not so great 1 Ct, the difference would be more.

If you can’t afford a very good unheated Mogok ruby, I’d be looking at other regions, including Vietnam and Africa (and a few more), that can produce great rubies as well (I mean, in your price range, and unheated).

Indeed, Quỳ Châu or Tajik rubies look more closely like the typical "good" Mogok rubies than Mong Hsu ones.

 

[minousbijoux]

I would not consider that stone at that price. In fact, due to the lack of saturation, I would not consider that stone at all. I agree with the others that if you are going to get the top name in rubies, then it would behoove you to get the characteristics that the origin has made famous - why bother otherwise? I personally would be looking at what's coming out of Madagascar and Mozambique these days.

just because it’s a pigeon blood red on GIA certificate

As far as I know, the only lab that refers to "pigeon blood red" is GRS; GIA does not. TL/Chrono: please correct me if I'm wrong!

 

[chrono]

Minou,
I'm guessing it's a typo, referring to GRS instead of GIA.

 

[colorchange]

GIA currently does state "Vivid red" with a comment at the bottom of the report:
The color appearance of this stone is described in the trade as “Pigeon’s Blood”.

Gubelin & SSEF do mention Pigeon Blood Red as well. GRS might be the only one to use it for treated rubies though, I know Gubelin & SSEF don't use it then, not sure for GIA. Gubelin & SSEF request a Burmese origin, and the typical qualities associated with Mogok (including fluorescence), GIA doesn't (I have one african ruby, that couldn't have been confused for anything else even by an unexperienced trader and that has the "vivid red" certificate).

 

[T L]

I would not consider that stone at that price. In fact, due to the lack of saturation, I would not consider that stone at all. I agree with the others that if you are going to get the top name in rubies, then it would behoove you to get the characteristics that the origin has made famous - why bother otherwise? I personally would be looking at what's coming out of Madagascar and Mozambique these days.

just because it’s a pigeon blood red on GIA certificate

As far as I know, the only lab that refers to "pigeon blood red" is GRS; GIA does not. TL/Chrono: please correct me if I'm wrong!

Not sure about the various lab designations of metaphors. Personally, that's why I always recommend the extensive AGL prestige report for expensive colored gems. It's the only one I know of that gives scientific and meaningful designations for hue, tone, clarity, and overall quality. These reports with metaphors are catering more toward the vendor than the client, which is why they're probably popular among vendors. Someone sees "pigeon blood" on a lab report and they think of the Crown Jewels.

 

[colorchange]

These reports with metaphors are catering more toward the vendor than the client, which is why they're probably popular among vendors.

I agree completely. That's also why some labs are more popular than others for certain purpose.

Personally, that's why I always recommend the extensive AGL prestige report for expensive colored gems. It's the only one I know of that gives scientific and meaningful designations for hue, tone, clarity, and overall quality.

If a scientific description of quality was possible, not only would I be very sad (and less able to make money), but you could be sure GIA (and other major labs) would embrace it.
Smaller labs need to offer more and different services (else why would any one use them, especially these days, when even they, are challenged), while large labs stick to what they are sure to be able to do consistently.

 

[T L]

The full blown AGL prestige report does have scientific information on it describing hue, clarity, tone, and quality. It's the only lab I know of in the gemological world that is so comprehensive. It even breaks down the percentage of primary and secondary hues in the gem.

http://aglgemlab.com/the-prestige-report/

 

[chrono]

GIA also made an attempt years ago breaking down colour by hue, saturation and tone (remember those little colour paddles and GemWizard software?) but it never really took off or was implemented in their lab reports.

 

[VapidLapid]

if that stone is pigeon's blood red, then that pigeon needs a transfusion.

 

[chrono]

Pigeon's dead; no can do.

 

[minousbijoux]

if that stone is pigeon's blood red, then that pigeon needs a transfusion.

+1. And actually, come to think of it, it seems that the majority of stones I've seen which have been touted as "pigeon's blood red" have looked just like this, so I'm gathering that pigeons blood isn't so attractive...

 

[T L]

if that stone is pigeon's blood red, then that pigeon needs a transfusion.

Who and where was that term coined anyways? Do pigeons have some blood that is redder than the rest of the animal kingdom?

 

[minousbijoux]

if that stone is pigeon's blood red, then that pigeon needs a transfusion.

Who and where was that term coined anyways? Do pigeons have some blood that is redder than the rest of the animal kingdom?

Apparently not!

 

[pregcurious]

Too much extinction, regardless of of the color. If you like that color, I would go for a better cut stone.

 

[Venti25]

I know nothing. about rubies but maybe the regulars can chime in with appropriateness. What about the "Rudolph" ring that is being sold again? Not sure how it stacks up but thought I'd throw that into the mix just in case it's a good candidate?

https://www.pricescope.com/communit...t-agl-cert-unheated-ruby-diamond-ring.183406/

 

[epgs]

Thank you all for your input. I have a lot to think about and will continue to shop around.
I may consider an african ruby instead, which most need no treatments, larger sizes are more affordable and i wont be paying so much or the origin only. African goods are on the rise and have more potential for a price upswing.

Thanks all !

Btw, what is the best way to check flouresences?

 

[pregcurious]

If a stone has very strong fluorescence, you can just go outside on a sunny day and see it. Otherwise, you can buy a special lamp/flashlight. There's another forum that I am not allowed to mention that good threads on gemology equipment. Try doing a Google search for gemology forums and you will find it.

 

[T L]

If a stone has very strong fluorescence, you can just go outside on a sunny day and see it. Otherwise, you can buy a special lamp/flashlight.

They sell inexpensive UV lights on ebay for around $5 to $10. It's helpful if you are a gem collector, or just someone who likes red gems, like spinels, rubies, since they often give off fluor. Some diamonds do as well.

 

[colorchange]

If you can't see fluorescence on a nice day out, it doesn't really add value. Regarding the "best" color, since ruby usually darken inside, and people tend to value sparkle a lot, most customers are better served with pinkish red rubies with a nice fluorescence, which will look red inside, have lots of life outside (thanks to fluorescence). A nice and affordable compromise to blood red, which is actually very beautiful for great specimen, but can be disappointing for not so good ones. You’d typically find these in Asia.
For a red "with a kick" you also have some with a hint of orange, rare but not so pricey. To many eyes they look more red than pure red, and some great ones were mined some time ago in Tanzania, with a nice, strong, orangey fluorescence.

In your budget, you should be able to afford a beautiful 2 Ct unheated of either kind.

 

[Rubeum]

GIA currently does state "Vivid red" with a comment at the bottom of the report:
The color appearance of this stone is described in the trade as “Pigeon’s Blood”.

Gubelin & SSEF do mention Pigeon Blood Red as well. GRS might be the only one to use it for treated rubies though, I know Gubelin & SSEF don't use it then, not sure for GIA. Gubelin & SSEF request a Burmese origin, and the typical qualities associated with Mogok (including fluorescence), GIA doesn't (I have one african ruby, that couldn't have been confused for anything else even by an unexperienced trader and that has the "vivid red" certificate).

Hello Pscopes, it's my first post and I beg to intervene in the discussion.
Unfortunately GIA declares "Vivid Red - ... Pigeon's Blood" also heated/fillered rubies, as you can see from the attached pic. Photo that I extracted from web and that isn't mine.
In any case GIA remains a point of reference much better GRS (IMHO). I been dealing (for private use, I'm not a seller) with many rubies declared "Vivid Red - Pigeon's Blood" from GRS, which to me were only rubies with a very dark in tone, not well saturated and a strong fluorescence, however, barely visible in daylight. I repeat that there's my personal views, I'm not an expert, I'm not a researcher, but only a passionate.

As far as the expression is poetic, I do not like to use and I do not get carried away by "Pigeon's Blood". I like to instead say "traditional ruby", because if we look at the famous rubies declared "Pigeon's Blood", they are all different but beautiful at the same time. The famous Alan Caplan Ruby looks very different from the Carmen Lucia, and both look different from Richard Burton Ruby or Roxburghe rubies... to see the traditional rubies of Mogok, what better image of ruby tiara of Princess Ashraf of Iran by Chaumet? I'm veering in off topic
This tirade to say that my advice is to avoid being attracted by beautiful words but, once established that the ruby ​​is natural and untreated, trust your eyes and your aesthetic taste. A red with a cold undertone (also called bluish red, because to get the carmine or the crimson color, is added a small portion of blue to primary red) well distributed throughout the stone (saturation); without falling in a too dark tone, such as to make the gem almost like a garnet; which maintains a beautiful rich red velvety appearance to both the incandescent light as the natural light.
The stone presented in the topic, despite being beautiful and respectable like all products of mother nature, does not represent what I believe desirable when you think of a ruby. With your budget you can definitely find something much more attractive and much more "ruby-like".

P.S. no pigeon was bleeding to death in writing this topic