not spinel-say sapphire

[m76steve]

i reported i just received a new blue spinel-a little over 5.90cts-sweet blue color-cussion cut-vvs-a very sweet stone to c in the flesh-the stone was won at an auction off of ebay-as with all my stones had it id'ed to verify material & my appraiser says not spinel but a very nice sapphire-i wasent sure at the time & the wife said looks as sapphire to her-really good color & excellent cut-am having the stone mounted in pendent & will photograph finished item within the week-pics of the stone r enclosed-steve...

 

[T L]

i reported i just received a new blue spinel-a little over 5.90cts-sweet blue color-cussion cut-vvs-a very sweet stone to c in the flesh-the stone was won at an auction off of ebay-as with all my stones had it id'ed to verify material & my appraiser says not spinel but a very nice sapphire-i wasent sure at the time & the wife said looks as sapphire to her-really good color & excellent cut-am having the stone mounted in pendent & will photograph finished item within the week-pics of the stone r enclosed-steve...

I hope you didn't pay a lot for it, because if it's a sapphire, and if it's diffused, it's worth very little. Are you sure the appraiser knows what they're doing? If it is sapphire, I would gander it's synthetic because I see absolutely no zoning or inclusions. Again, something to be concerned about.

 

[Edward Bristol]

No way.

1. Nobody sells a big sapphire for the price of a spinel (like nobody sells a new Mercedes for the price of a bicycle)

2. That does not look like natural sapphire, nor good spinel.

 

[m76steve]

to edward-according to my appraiser who said spinel is single refractive-this stone is double refractive-is cut as most sapphire is cut & test as a sapphire would test-more test to come-what is the possibility of a gem seller in bangkok misrepresenting stones-accidents happen-will keep the info comming as i get it-new pics to come when stone is set in gold & appraised-twice-by the way thanks for ur input-muchly-steve...

 

[chrono]

It is good that your appraiser will run further tests to confirm if that is truly corundum. An RI and SG test will help rule out several possibilities. I wouldn’t bank on it being cut as most sapphires are cut as a ruling out method, plus I’ve never heard of such a theory. If the stone is misrepresented, it is more likely to be a beryllium diffused or synthetic (looks very clean) sapphire because it’s worth pennies compared to a blue spinel.

 

[m76steve]

this is good input from u all-as i said this is ongoing & will keep all informed because the possibility does exist be it slight this is sapphire-im doing my homework-steve...

 

[PrecisionGem]

Steve, can you share what you paid for the stone?

 

[m76steve]

to precision-i bought this stone on auction several weeks ago-when i bid the price was at $12.00-within the last 4 seconds of the auction the price went to $150.00 dollars-my top bid which i got my bid in with 1 second before the auction stopped & i outbid 2 other bidders-iv been buying in this way for years & i dont mind telling u that my collection has an appraised value way over $200,000.00 & this is by different appraisers & many stones have been appraised twice or more-these appraisers are independent-some know of each other & refer to others when needed-sometimes we step in poop & smell sweet-i will let the forum know how this stone comes out-im interested myself-steve...

 

[PrecisionGem]

It's too hard to judge a stone from a photo, but typically a 6 ct blue sapphire should sell from $2000 to $20,000.

So why would anyone risk selling a stone on a $9.99 auction, and ultimately sell it for $150. That's less than 1/10 of a very low value. Something doesn't seem right here. Now I don't buy cut stones very often, but I know buying rough, I have NEVER come across such a deal. Every rough dealer I have ever worked with knew what what things are worth, and would never give away a $2000 rough for $150, or worse yet risk it to go for $9.99 I suppose it's possible, but I have never seen this. Guys crawling out of mud huts in the bush of Africa, would have never sold a 6 ct rough blue sapphire for $150, much less cut, which would have come from at least a 14 ct stone.

I'd expect this stone to have come from an 18 ct rough, for which I would have expected to pay, depending on the color from $50 to $300 per ct for the rough. Lab grown material would be around $.25 per ct, so the rough could have been $4.50, then pay someone $1 to $2 to cut it in a sweat shop, and the stone could have been sold at $9.99 for a very small profit.

 

[m76steve]

precision-every now & then we come out smelling like a rose-i have an appraiser who checked this stone twice-did several tests while i waited-i let him do his thing & he said nothing about synthetic, diffused, filled or otherwise-he said i have a nice sapphire very well cut & good color-he also said to have any other appraiser do his thing-this will b done-he said this is a nicer stone than a spinel & he will appraise as such-more to come-thanks for ur interest & info-steve...

 

[PrecisionGem]

Well, since you saved maybe $10,000 you may want to send it off the AGL for a lab report.

 

[m76steve]

precision-thanks for the advise but i have at least two appraisals to go then well see what happens-if u remember seeing pics of piles of gems that are being sorted & inspected by so called tecks in small offices/huts/shops whatever in my mind im surprised they dont misplace or id stones improperly on a larger scale-iv bought many stones before & before they were delivered i had them properly id'd-in some cases the stones were not as listed & corrections were made-will keep in touch-steve...

 

[chrono]

Steve,
Most gemologists and appraisers do not have as good or as many equipment on hand compared to good labs like AGL, which is why a lab is almost always recommended over an appraiser.

 

[davi_el_mejor]

Steve,
Most gemologists and appraisers do not have as good or as many equipment on hand compared to good labs like AGL, which is why a lab is almost always recommended over an appraiser.

See my thread on verifying color origin. The appraiser said the diamond was probably irradiated for color. I sent it to GIA, it came back graded as natural for color and origin. If I had settled for the appraisers view I would have potentially lost a lot of money if I were to sell it in the future. Just food for thought.

 

[Jim Rentfrow]

Precision is correct. Anyone who sells gems knows exactly what they are worth. This can be the local gem enthursist or dealers in Africa and Thailand. Dealers usually do a spot check or look over goods before they go out the door as well. While you might have got a deal the probability is that you did not. Anything that I bought as "a deal or steal" when I was starting out always was a rip off because it was synthetic or not a good material. I wont even look at rough now unless it is what I have been paying or more because when its less than market price it is not worth the time or effort to cut it. Send it to AGL, its only 60 dollars for a gem brief which is probably close to what you pay your appraisers.

 

[m76steve]

Steve,
Most gemologists and appraisers do not have as good or as many equipment on hand compared to good labs like AGL, which is why a lab is almost always recommended over an appraiser.

i do agree but in the past i have been satisfied with the quality & resources that the apprs. iv used have done their work very well & if a question arose the appraisal was put on hold until any ?'s were answered & then their appraisal was completed & justified for me-just recently i found that some of my smaller emeralds do have some filler within the stone-not surprising to me as i suspected such by the appearance of these stones-even though the appraisal was still good overal-thanks for ur input-steve...

 

[LD]

precision-every now & then we come out smelling like a rose-i have an appraiser who checked this stone twice-did several tests while i waited-i let him do his thing & he said nothing about synthetic, diffused, filled or otherwise-he said i have a nice sapphire very well cut & good color-he also said to have any other appraiser do his thing-this will b done-he said this is a nicer stone than a spinel & he will appraise as such-more to come-thanks for ur interest & info-steve...

Steve - first of all let me say that I hope you've got deal of the century BUT and this is an enormous BUT I am sorry to say that ANY appraiser faced with a 6ct stone that "could" be a sapphire would most definitely have said something about BE diffusion etc etc. Whilst I understand you may trust your appraiser, their lack of coherent information sharing would worry me intensely. If your stone is natural (and let's just say it's heated only), it's worth much more than a BE diffused stone which isn't really worth a lot and any appraiser worth their weight would most definitely have caveated their opinion by (a) telling you that and (b) encouraging you to have the stone appraised by a lab! If it's a BE diffused stone then it's worth probably what you paid.

Cut is absolute NO indication of what the stone may be and therefore this needs to be ruled out completely. You also need to consider if a vendor would put any stone of that size up for sale without testing it first? Nearly every vendor will be able to check the RI of a stone. Look at it this way, if it were part of your inventory, wouldn't you spend the 3 minutes it takes to test?

I'm afraid that appraisers do not have the equipment to accurately assess treatments. The equipment is enormously expensive and that's why there's only a handful of labs that can give you an accurate diagnosis.

I'm a realist Steve. Everybody has a "find" every now and again but for a stone of this size and clarity, the chances of it (a) being a sapphire and (b) not having treatments applied is highly highly highly unlikely.

 

[T L]

precision-thanks for the advise but i have at least two appraisals to go then well see what happens-if u remember seeing pics of piles of gems that are being sorted & inspected by so called tecks in small offices/huts/shops whatever in my mind im surprised they dont misplace or id stones improperly on a larger scale-iv bought many stones before & before they were delivered i had them properly id'd-in some cases the stones were not as listed & corrections were made-will keep in touch-steve...

Appraisals ARE NOT THE SAME as a lab report from a well known and respected lab. I've seen appraisals that were way overblown. It happens all the time, and there really isn't any vigilance to make appraisers give a reasonable and well researched value. Your stones may be worth something to one appraiser and if another appraiser looked at them, they may come up with a value at the other end of the spectrum. A stone is only really worth what someone will pay for it, and an appraisal is only good for insurance purposes. For example, a white diamond might be appraised at $10K, but there is no one that would pay that much for it if you tried to resell it and you were not a retailer.

 

[T L]

Steve,
Most gemologists and appraisers do not have as good or as many equipment on hand compared to good labs like AGL, which is why a lab is almost always recommended over an appraiser.

See my thread on verifying color origin. The appraiser said the diamond was probably irradiated for color. I sent it to GIA, it came back graded as natural for color and origin. If I had settled for the appraisers view I would have potentially lost a lot of money if I were to sell it in the future. Just food for thought.

Excellent reason why you should not always listen to appraisers who guess. That being said, I feel some appraisers are very good, and if they do not have the specific equipment to test a stone, they will recommend sending it to a lab. In this case Steve, unless your appraiser can microscopically determine that the sapphire is unheated and it has inclusions indicative of natural material, they should also recommend that you send this stone to a lab with the LIBS or LA-ICP-MS machines. If they do not, they are not doing their job, and they are incompetent as far as I'm concerned.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Steve, can we ask what your appraisers appraised the value of the at?

 

[morecarats]

Your appraiser has tested the stone. Now it's time to test the appraiser.

Offer him the sapphire for $150/carat. If he takes you up on the offer, you've made a handsome profit on the stone.

If he declines the offer, you know that he has little confidence in his appraisal.

 

[FrekeChild]

Steve,
Most gemologists and appraisers do not have as good or as many equipment on hand compared to good labs like AGL, which is why a lab is almost always recommended over an appraiser.

i do agree but in the past i have been satisfied with the quality & resources that the apprs. iv used have done their work very well & if a question arose the appraisal was put on hold until any ?'s were answered & then their appraisal was completed & justified for me-just recently i found that some of my smaller emeralds do have some filler within the stone-not surprising to me as i suspected such by the appearance of these stones-even though the appraisal was still good overal-thanks for ur input-steve...

Steve, I'm sorry to say it, but I think your appraisers are laughing all the way to the bank.

You're paying them and they keep telling you your stuff is worth a lot of money and "is nicer than what you originally thought". They are telling you what you want to hear, and it doesn't sound like they even know what they are talking about (zoning? inclusions? BE diffusion? synthetic?).

You seem to have such trust in these people, and as the old CS adage goes: "Trust, but verify" So--you reportedly got a $2k+ stone for $150. Go spend $60 for a lab report. If it comes back as natural, laugh all the way to the bank.

If it doesn't, perhaps do some research and get a new appraiser. And have THEM reappraise all of your gems.

I am also curious what these gems that have be appraised at $200,000 actually cost you. Do you mind sharing?

 

[Largosmom]

I started to post the same thing that Frekechild said, only she stated it better...it seems in the gem world that "verify then trust" may be the best way to approach most interactions, especially if you spend large sums of money and sometimes if you spend small sums of money.

Appraisals for a pair of diamond rings which I inherited cost me around $100 each. If I were getting a colored stone appraised, I'd have it done by someone who has a ton of experience with colored stones, and even then I'd probably get a lab report to ensure it is as sold to me.

With a nice sapphire of that size, I would personally want to be certain that if it were lost or stolen, that I would recoupe the value of the stone. A lab report should tell you if what you have is, indeed a nice sapphire, with more certainty than a line of appraisals.

I hope you got what you think you got...but the red flags are definitely flying.

Laura

 

[Edward Bristol]

I wager $150 that it is synthetic sapphire.

Anyone in for a bet?

 

[m76steve]

to edward-i tend to agree u on this being synthetic-in this case iv only put out $150.00, got really good responce from people in the business & will eat crow if i have a blooper-if the stone is faux it will come out of the pendent & into the 'also ran bucket'-thanks for the input-steve...

 

[m76steve]

im sitting in front of the pc with a plate of crow-got the stone back from appraisal-officially tested & rechecked-found to be synthetic sapphire-well heated & cooked in a chem soup-the appraiser took his time & did a fine job of checking cross reference & inspecting the stone-not spinel-just a cooked stone--many thanks to all who answered my post

 

[T L]

I would contact the seller and request a refund. A synthetic sapphire should not cost more than $20 for that shape and size.

 

[LD]

Sorry to hear that Steve but unfortunately I'm not surprised.

Just as a matter of curiosity which lab did you send it to because it must have had an incredibly fast turn-around time!

If it's another appraiser giving you an opinion then you still haven't got an answer I'm afraid. The ONLY way to test for diffusion and I mean the ONLY way, is with expensive laboratory equipment.

 

[m76steve]

to TL & LD-thanks for ur comments-the fellow who did the appr. was extremely thourough in his work-he was at it for @1hr & 20 min-he showed me what was good & what was missing within the stone-he showed me what a treated stone looked after treatment in several books & charts-after he was done i was satisfied as he was that he id'd the stone correctly-he said he was put to the task to get this stone correctly done-i have no reserves as to his work-the good thing is ebay stands behind the sale-i no my stones are good because this is the way iv been buying since starting the hobby-buy & verify-has worked well for me-as usual im off again in a cloud of schmootz looking for my ideal gems-steve...

 

[PrecisionGem]

Steve, I'm confused, is it a heat treated synthetic sapphire? Or a synthetic sapphire? Some lab created sapphire will get a decent price. I have seen them sell from $10 to $200 per ct.