Is this feasible? (Blue sapphire question)

[T L]

High quality blue sapphire rough will never be offered for sale in the US. It's almost always cut right near the source.

Tucson does provide opportunities for other kinds of rough stones however, but not sapphire or ruby in top gem quality. Next to diamonds, sapphire ruby and emerald are the more easy sells in the US for most jewelers. Many normal (not Pricescope) consumers have pretty much only heard of diamonds, sapphire, ruby and emerald. The best way for a cutter to cut any of these is to re-cut poorly cut stones.

The lapidaries that are known for specialty cuts on sapphires typically do recuts of existing faceted stones that they buy.

 

[Starzin]

Did you see this one? http://www.ebay.ca/itm/1-35ct-VVS-O...1&hash=item3a6d331fce&clk_rvr_id=309593561439

And have you looked through Kashmirblue http://www.kashmirblue.com/index.html or SimplySapphires http://www.simplysapphires.com/html/blue2.html?

 

[ddgdl]

I did not see that ebay one, though I think it might be a tad dark, especially in a setting- it is rated a 6 on a 7 scale, and I'm looking for a 5 to 5.5 (not that the 5.5 exists, mind you). In almost every other respect, though, that looks like a good match!

I have not looked through Kashmir, though I have looked through simply sapphires. Thanks for the links.

 

[Starzin]

No problem, at least you're aware of the ebay one though I agree it is a little dark. Roll on Tucson

 

[Pandora II]

Just wanted to add a few bits here...

Rectangular is a really tough shape to find as it doesn't follow the natural shape of the rough. Rough sapphires are often colour-zoned rather than being a solid colour.

I'm posting up a picture of a rough sapphire crystal so you can see the issues with banding and the shape.

Sri Lanka is one of the major producers of sapphire and the government have a ban on exporting rough. The gemstone industry there is hugely important and they don't want to damage the cutting industry by allowing the rough to go overseas.

Precision cut Ceylon (Sri Lankan) sapphires will be recuts of existing stones.


Flawless - coloured stones are judged for clarity at a distance of 12" rather than under a x10 loupe like diamonds are. Sapphires are a type II stone so they are expected to have some inclusions. Personally I prefer to have an inclusion or two - so that I know a stone is natural... if I see a completely clean blue sapphire of good colour I will automatically assume it is synthetic until proven otherwise.

Is there a reason that you won't look at heated stones? With the parameters you have you will have an even harder job to find an unheated emerald cut in the right shade of blue.

 

[ddgdl]

The only reason I was wary of heated stones was the concern that they make the sapphire more brittle. Otherwise, I have no objection to heat treatment, per se, and now recognize that I will likely have to give in on that requirement in order to find a stone that fits the bill.

The explanation you gave about the shape of the rough not being fit for rectangular shapes makes sense- thanks!

 

[ddgdl]

Any thoughts on these? None of them match my needs exactly, but I've pretty much given up on that:

Color is too light (see the second photo), though that may darken in a setting:
http://www.wildfishgems.com/inc/sdetail/10883/11491

Color is dead on, but its a little deep and there is a flaw in the cut (while we're at it- could someone explain to me the brilliancy and depth % numbers? is there a range I should be looking for?):
http://www.wildfishgems.com/inc/sdetail/10883/9831

Probably the closest stone yet:
http://www.wildfishgems.com/inc/sdetail/10883/9970

Radiant cut! But possibly too light, though that may darken in a setting:
http://www.wildfishgems.com/inc/sdetail/10883/10197

 

[PrecisionGem]

My advice.... don't pay any attention to %depth, ratio's etc. They are basically meaningless in colored stones. Instead just look at the stone. Ratios of crown height, pavilion height to diameter only make sense if you are comparing identical cut designs. All this was created for diamonds cut in a SRB design. Most all colored stones are not cut in this design so these ratios and numbers are meaningless.

I compare buying a diamond to buying a tire for you car. You can spec out the rim size, speed rating, width etc, and with out looking at the tire buy it. Same thing for a diamond, but not for a colored stone. The best way to compare a colored stone is to look at it, and look at it in person. Comparing photos from different websites can at best give you a vague idea of how the stones compare. Everyone uses different lighting, camera's and post processing.

 

[ddgdl]

I thought that those ratios were probably just a hold-over from the diamond industry, but I wanted to make sure- thanks.

 

[T L]

Any thoughts on these? None of them match my needs exactly, but I've pretty much given up on that:

Color is too light (see the second photo), though that may darken in a setting:
http://www.wildfishgems.com/inc/sdetail/10883/11491

Color is dead on, but its a little deep and there is a flaw in the cut (while we're at it- could someone explain to me the brilliancy and depth % numbers? is there a range I should be looking for?):
http://www.wildfishgems.com/inc/sdetail/10883/9831

Probably the closest stone yet:
http://www.wildfishgems.com/inc/sdetail/10883/9970

Radiant cut! But possibly too light, though that may darken in a setting:
http://www.wildfishgems.com/inc/sdetail/10883/10197

The first one is too grey for my taste. I would be worried about the tones on the second and third being a bit too dark, and I would want artificial light photos of them.

The fourth one is the nicest tone, IMHO (others may disagree), but why is it more expensive than the other two which are supposedly more saturated? Is this one more saturated? It doesn't look more saturated than the previous two to my eye. However, because of the tone, I think this would look nicest in a setting.

In any case, I would want artificial light photos of the gems in question because sapphires tend to go more grey and dark in artificial light and for around $2K/ct, I wouldn't want that.

 

[movie zombie]

judging color stones from online pictures is almost impossible. until you see them side-by-side you aren't going to know. best: whip out the credit card and have a few sent to you to view. return the ones you don't like....which could be all of them. then start over.

do not forget that high end sapphires go for way more than $2k per carat.
you already know that you want value for $.
only way to know for sure is to view them.

 

[Pandora II]

The only reason I was wary of heated stones was the concern that they make the sapphire more brittle. Otherwise, I have no objection to heat treatment, per se, and now recognize that I will likely have to give in on that requirement in order to find a stone that fits the bill.

The explanation you gave about the shape of the rough not being fit for rectangular shapes makes sense- thanks!

My understanding was that the brittleness was only caused by high heat? Please someone correct me if I am wrong!

 

[T L]

judging color stones from online pictures is almost impossible. until you see them side-by-side you aren't going to know. best: whip out the credit card and have a few sent to you to view. return the ones you don't like....which could be all of them. then start over.

do not forget that high end sapphires go for way more than $2k per carat.
you already know that you want value for $.
only way to know for sure is to view them.

Not sure if one should pay more than $3K/ct for sizes under 1.5 carats though. I think that's the top end for a stone that size, but someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[chrono]

I have not heard of brittleness caused by the normal heating of sapphires.

As for cut parameters, there are no set numbers for the table, depth and etc. There are so many different variations of cut designs just for a rectangular stone that there are too many variables for that "perfect" ratio. Once a person goes beyond the generic advice of not having a stone too shallow (under 60% thereabouts) a crown being too flat, it all comes down to the eye.

$3K/ct for a stone under 1.5 ct, even if unheated seems really high, unless it's really at the top end. Sapphires 3 and 4 look like potential stones; not too dark, not too deep, cutting is decent, and saturation looks acceptable. Stone 1 lacks saturation and Stone 2 looks too deep and too dark. I particularly like Stone 4 because of its brilliancy, which is going to look livelier than the step cut Stone 3.

 

[Pandora II]

A top quality unheated stone with a Kashmir origin (and the looks to go with it) would top $3k/carat I would imagine.

 

[chrono]

A top quality unheated stone with a Kashmir origin (and the looks to go with it) would top $3k/carat I would imagine.

Ditto...but these aren't top quality Kashmir sapphires.

 

[ddgdl]

My understanding was that the brittleness was only caused by high heat? Please someone correct me if I am wrong!

My reading of this thread seems to suggest that, as with many things, "it depends": http://gemologyonline.com/Forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=341&sid=9fcba5f5012640d8971c9d25c0c8d1c3&start=15

 

[Starzin]

Yowza! That is a heads up. Thanks for the link ddgdl.

 

[The sun is shining]

http://www.africagems.com/sapphire-blue-ja326.html I think this one is divine, but admittedly I am a little bias - I was recently given something similar as my er. 1mm over your required length, but the proportions seem sgood

I had the luxury of selecting my stone from a tray containing many sapphires in may colours. I thought I wanted a cushion cut, but then this beauty caught me eye. Neither picture acurately articulates the colour (particularly the hipsta pic... but's it's a pretty picture none the less .) It changes in different lights.





eta - finger size - M/53/6, stone dimensions 9x7

 

[minousbijoux]

This one has probably already been suggested, and I can't recall whether a long cushion would even be allowed but anyway:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-40ct-UNHEATED-Long-Cushion-Natural-Top-Blue-SAPPHIRE-/250968131013?pt=Loose_Gemstones_1&hash=item3a6eddc5c5#ht_2522wt_958

 

[minousbijoux]

Whoops. Just remembered you didn't want any violet modifiers...

 

[Pandora II]

My understanding was that the brittleness was only caused by high heat? Please someone correct me if I am wrong!

My reading of this thread seems to suggest that, as with many things, "it depends": http://gemologyonline.com/Forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=341&sid=9fcba5f5012640d8971c9d25c0c8d1c3&start=15

I know that thread well, and they are all pointing at high heat being the issue. Since 99.9% of sapphires are heat-treated I wouldn't be concerned about this at all - especially as you are unlikely to be looking at stones that have been subjected to high heat.

 

[ddgdl]

Pandora- how does one know just how high the heat was that was applied to a sapphire that has been heat treated? Are there certain things to look out for? Or do sapphires generally not receive the type of high heat treatment that would cause such brittleness? I think my initial reason for avoiding heat treatment generally was because I don't know how to tell the high from low heat treatment, and thus I thought that a better policy was to avoid heat treatment at all. These issues are all so very interesting!

 

[Pandora II]

Low heat treatments can be very hard to tell - for example sapphires can be treated at around 700 degrees C and yet rutile silk doesn't dissolve till around 1400 degrees C. Anything up to about 1200 degrees is considered 'low' heat. When stones are beryllium diffused then the stones are heated to just below melting point.

There are various changes to inclusions that take place at different temperatures (such as the melting of the rutile silk) but you really need an expert gemmologist or lab to find out. It's not something you can DIY. Some things like Beryllium diffusion can only be detected by vapourising a tiny bit of the sapphire and analysing the vapour for traces of the elements - there are some inclusions that are indicators for suspicion but you really need to be an expert to know what you are doing (I'm a qualified gemmologist and wouldn't want to try doing this if money was involved!)

However a large number of stones on the market will only have been subjected to low heat - 90%+ of all sapphires and rubies (both corundum) will have been heated. A lot of dealers will be qualified gemmologists, many years of experience and use trusted sources and so much of what they are buying will be low heat only.

No-one will be able to tell at a glance if a stone is heated or not, so I would probably opt to forego the potential 40% premium for unheated and put the money into a better colour or bigger stone. If money is no object/when I win the lottery then I would opt for untreated.

For any major purchase it's a good plan to get a lab report (AGL in the USA, Gubelin or SSEF in Europe are very highly regarded). Given the cost of shipping, testing etc I tend to only worry about reports for stones over $2k. Often cheaper stones will come with a mini-report from labs like GIT in Thailand - these will state natural origin and basic treatment but won't give details. If I know the vendor, or they have a good reputation then I tend to be happy with that for cheaper stones.

Some species like spinels, chrysoberyls and most garnets are not currently treated, but there are many, many busy people in Thailand experimenting to see what happens when you nuke, heat, fill, diffuse, insert treatment of choice, any rock that comes out of the ground that might be potentially worth something! Treatments are great in that they allow more people to own a pretty rock, but disclosure is important as lack of treatment can carries the premium.

Most of us have things we will/will not accept. I'm fine with heat but dislike anything nuked, filled (except emeralds), diffused or coated (mystic topaz and it's ilk ). The same happens with cut - I'm a native cut fan and teeny windows don't bother me... in fact most things are forgiven if the colour is rights. I'm also fine with most inclusions. Many on PS only like precision cuts..

So it's really deciding what you are happy with.

Btw, They have been heat-treating sapphires since Roman times so it's not a new treatment!

Hope this helps a bit!

 

[ddgdl]

Thank you very much for that explanation Pandora. If my budget is up to $8k, and I'm only looking at a stone that is around 7mm x 5mm, would you think that would be within the range of an unheated stone in a vivid, saturated medium blue? Not kashmir, mind you.

 

[Starzin]

Well this one is a lovely colour...2.5ct...8.50 x 6.80 x 5.00 mm...Madagascar...heated...BUT it is cut by Roger Dery...$6,495 and it's oval.

Unfortunately, I don't think you can buy it without A ring - not necessarily the one being suggested - although I think the .52ct E-F/VS bullets are beautiful.

http://rockdiamond.com/index.php/je...lue-sapphire-cushion-cut-gorgeous-color-r4191

 

[Pandora II]

Thank you very much for that explanation Pandora. If my budget is up to $8k, and I'm only looking at a stone that is around 7mm x 5mm, would you think that would be within the range of an unheated stone in a vivid, saturated medium blue? Not kashmir, mind you.

If it was oval or cushion then I would say definitely doable. The emerald cut is the tricky part - finding an untreated, top colour blue is a big ask and they are very sought after so there may well be a big premium.

 

[Starzin]

http://www.oneilsaffiliated.com/pro...e-ceylon-sapphire/1-26ct-emc-ceylon-sapphire/

There are two other emerald cuts on their site - unfortunately one has a green stone video though the description is for Ceylon blue.

I've just posted this on another sapphire hunt thread:

the vendor is in Australia, gives no prices or detail and says Trade only within Australia all over the place. I don't know if that means vendors in Australia and Joe Public internationally, or that they won't deal with a vendor overseas either.
(snip)
PS - these are the only videos I've seen which show the silk/zoning often present in sapphires so clearly. Don't be put off - it's rarely as visible in IRL.

But I've just had a thought...post a shout out (or email) Gary Holloway, part owner of Pricescope and a jeweller in Melbourne - he should know or be able to get the information easily.

 

[ddgdl]

So, africagems.com is having a 20% off sale for valentine's day. That makes it very tempting to go with something from them, even if it doesn't meet all of my needs.

What would you say is the best of these stones? 20% off price listed in brackets.

http://www.africagems.com/sapphire-blue-ja326.html ($7192)

http://www.africagems.com/blue-sapphire-g2000-2786.html ($4789)

http://www.africagems.com/blue-sapphire-g2000-1985.html ($3999)

http://www.africagems.com/blue-sapphire-g2000-1096.html ($3425)

http://www.africagems.com/sapph-blue-g2k-3747.html ($306

Yes, I know you can't tell enough from stock photos, but if you could point me to which one or two have the best saturation and color (that you can tell), I can then ask them for more photos of those specific stones.

Anything really jump out at you as a good deal with the 20% off?

 

[pregcurious]

I would call the vendor and ask these questions. I think it's very difficult to buy a gem online, and at this price, I would want the opinion of the vendor's expert eye before proceeding.