Heat treated sapphires?

[Chicago Girl]

Hi all,

I've done a little reading up on heat treated sapphires and it seems that a majority of sapphires on the market are heat treated. I was just wondering what yall's opinions were on heat treated versus untreated sapphires? PS was so helpful for my fiance in picking out my e-ring, so I really trust the community here. I am looking at a wedding band that has diamonds and sapphires, and the vendor told me that the sapphires are heat treated. I'm just not sure how I feel about that. They are small sized to be sure, as the band is alternating diamonds and sapphires. Would love to hear people's opinions.

Thanks!

 

[LD]

There are heat treated sapphires and then there are HEAT TREATED sapphires! Confused? Yes, most people are!

Basically, there are some sapphires that are heat treated only - these are acceptable to some PSers and others would only accept sapphires with no treatment whatsoever. Clearly untreated sapphires are usually more expensive than others (if colour/size/clarity etc are the same).

Other sapphires that are sold as "heat treated" actually have other treatments going on also - some only detectable by expensive lab equipment that devalue the gemstone considerably (i.e. Be diffusion). So if you're ok with heat treated sapphires you need to ensure that that's all you're getting! That means finding a stone you love but then sending it to a lab (preferably AGL) for a thorough analysis. NEVER expect a Vendor's word that the stone has only been heat treated!

 

[Chicago Girl]

Thank you for your response! So you're saying that a reputable brick & mortar jeweler (what I'm looking at) may tell me that the sapphires are only heat treated (that is what they told me) but there could be other treatments going on? There isn't any type of certification I can ask the jeweler to show me?

 

[LD]

Yes that's what I'm saying. To be honest, your average jeweller (no offence to jewellers) may not know enough about gemstones so they may be blissfully unaware. They may have bought the gemstones as heat only but if you don't check, you don't know. Unfortunately a vast majority of coloured gemstones have been played with in some way nowadays.

The ONLY "certificate" is a lab report from a REPUTABLE gemstone lab ie AGL (one of the best for coloured gemstones). A certificate or piece of paper from a jewellers means absolutely nothing. They can't run the tests that labs do. The only way to be 100% certain of what's happened to your gem is a lab report.

Most reputable dealers will allow you to purchase the gemstone on the basis that if a less than favourable report comes back you can return the stone for a full refund. Some vendors will send the gem to a lab for you, some don't and you have to buy, send it off yourself etc. The lab report will usually be at your cost though.

If somebody says to you "trust me I don't need to send this to a lab because I know what I've bought and am selling" run away as fast as your legs will go!

 

[Chicago Girl]

You rock, thanks for your response once again.

 

[Lilcubby76]

Thank you so much for asking about this Chicago Girl. We are researching sapphires as a possible center stone for my e-ring and this was one of the things I was wondering about.

 

[Chicago Girl]

No problem! I love this forum so much - so incredibly helpful. I just contacted the brick & mortar jeweler who has the wedding band I am interested in and asked them if they could either (a) substitute their heat treated sapphires with untreated sapphires or (b) provide an AGL certificate showing their sapphires were only heat treated. Hopefully one of the two options will work out for me.

 

[Pandora II]

A gemmologist should be able to tell you if a sapphire has only been subjected to low heat - if so, it will not have been Be diffused as this requires the stone to be heated to just below melting point.

It's also worth remembering that a report (it is not a certificate or a guarantee, merely an opinion) will cost you around $200 for AGL once you have paid shipping, insurance and for the Prestige report (Be testing is time consuming and expensive and it not a normal test).

For those in Europe, Gubelin will charge around £220 GBP plus shipping and insurance and SSEF is around £400GBP plus shipping and insurance.

Personally I only think it is worth sending a stone for a full report if it is extremely expensive or you want to sell it again. If the stone has a report from a less prestigious lab then I would be happy with a brief report from a lab like AGL (Gubelin and SSEF don't offer this) as they will automatically contact you if they suspect anything other than low heat.

Finally, I am personally not prepared to pay a HUGE premium (as much as 40%) for something I can't see and so I will accept heat-treatment of the low heat variety. Not accepting heat also massively reduces the quantity of stones to choose from - as it's already hard enough to find the right colour in the right shape at the right size, right clarity and finally right price it can make it like looking for the proverbial needle.

Sapphires are far, far rarer than diamonds which are so plentiful that in the normal sizes they can literally be bought of the shelf - it can take a long time to find the right coloured stone - and sapphires are currently THE stone and it appears that EVERYONE wants one!

There has been talk of heated sapphires being more brittle, but from what I have read this only applies to high heat. Considering that 95% + of sapphires are heated it's not something I would worry about.

ETA: I will declare at this point that I am a qualified gemmologist and hence perhaps more laid back regarding reports.

 

[Pandora II]

No problem! I love this forum so much - so incredibly helpful. I just contacted the brick & mortar jeweler who has the wedding band I am interested in and asked them if they could either (a) substitute their heat treated sapphires with untreated sapphires or (b) provide an AGL certificate showing their sapphires were only heat treated. Hopefully one of the two options will work out for me.

It's pretty much impossible to get unheated melee, and sending such small stones for reports at $100+ a time isn't cost effective I'm afraid. It would be a very expensive wedding band!

Generally you will find that jewellers/vendors will expect you to purchase and send a stone for a report at your own expense with a guarantee that they will refund the cost of both stone and report if the report shows a treatment that they have not declared.

Sometimes very expensive stones may come with a report already purchased by the vendor (and obviously worked into the cost price) but it is too expensive to buy expensive reports on every stone (many will come with brief reports from labs out in Thailand - which are generally perfectly acceptable - although I would want one of the more prestigious ones for a big purchase).

Hope that helps.

 

[Chicago Girl]

Sadness, then what options do I have? Picture of the wedding band attached for reference (sorry for the terrible lighting, this was taken with my phone camera). I haven't purchased it, but I just love the way it looks....but I just don't want to buy something that's a rip off somehow (i.e. getting a "heat treated" sapphire that's actually treated a billion other ways). The jeweler (completely reputable in Chicago) claims they are only heat treated, but I understand I can't necessarily depend on that....?

 

[Chicago Girl]

It's pretty much impossible to get unheated melee

If that's the case, does that mean I should be unconcerned with the heated sapphires in this band?

 

[Pandora II]

To be honest there isn't anything you can do but trust your jeweller.

I suppose you could ask an appraiser to have a look at them - but it is doubtful that they will be able to say much more than whether they are natural stones or not.

Be diffusion is much less common in blue stones than it is in the oranges/yellows/pinks/pads/reds so I wouldn't personally be too concerned.

 

[Pandora II]

It's pretty much impossible to get unheated melee

If that's the case, does that mean I should be unconcerned with the heated sapphires in this band?

Yes.

 

[LD]

A gemmologist should be able to tell you if a sapphire has only been subjected to low heat - if so, it will not have been Be diffused as this requires the stone to be heated to just below melting point. ]

I just wanted to stress that gemmologists should not be confused with jewellers. Gemmologists and jewellers are a different breed! Also, there are gemmologists who specialise in diamonds and gemmologists who specialise in coloured gemstones. Very few specialise in both (although there are some).

When I read your post I hadn't noticed you had said the ring had melee sapphires in a wedding band (I've re-read it now and you clearly did say that ) but I had assumed you were talking about a large single stone and if so and this was a significant purchase (for you) and you wanted to insure it for it's proper replacement value, a lab report would be something I personally would want. However, for smaller stones or a less significant purchase, like Pandora has said, I wouldn't get a lab report.

I personally will accept just heat in a sapphire but absolutely nothing else. No dyes, filling, Be diffusion etc.

 

[LD]

Sadness, then what options do I have? Picture of the wedding band attached for reference (sorry for the terrible lighting, this was taken with my phone camera). I haven't purchased it, but I just love the way it looks....but I just don't want to buy something that's a rip off somehow (i.e. getting a "heat treated" sapphire that's actually treated a billion other ways). The jeweler (completely reputable in Chicago) claims they are only heat treated, but I understand I can't necessarily depend on that....?

The sapphires are small so I'm guessing that they're not the significant part of the value of the ring? If the ring is priced correctly then I wouldn't be too worried. If your centre stone was a sapphire I'd be saying something different!

If you love it, get it, because that's half the battle!

 

[Chicago Girl]

When I read your post I hadn't noticed you had said the ring had melee sapphires in a wedding band (I've re-read it now and you clearly did say that )

Aw no problem! I really appreciate everyone's opinions here. I love the look of the diamond/sapphire wedding band - IRL it looks amazing with my e-ring. I guess if there's really no way to get untreated smaller sized sapphires then I shouldn't be too concerned.

 

[Pandora II]

A gemmologist should be able to tell you if a sapphire has only been subjected to low heat - if so, it will not have been Be diffused as this requires the stone to be heated to just below melting point. ]

I just wanted to stress that gemmologists should not be confused with jewellers. Gemmologists and jewellers are a different breed! Also, there are gemmologists who specialise in diamonds and gemmologists who specialise in coloured gemstones. Very few specialise in both (although there are some).

When I read your post I had assumed you were talking about a large single stone and if so and this was a significant purchase (for you) and you wanted to insure it for it's proper replacement value, a lab report would be something I personally would want. However, for smaller stones or a less significant purchase, like Pandora has said, I wouldn't get a lab report.

I personally will accept just heat in a sapphire but absolutely nothing else. No dyes, filling, Be diffusion etc.

Ditto this.

It also applies to appraisers. Very, very few are truly experienced with coloured stones, their treatments and current market prices. I asked a few dealers recently to recommend an appraiser they would trust for a superb sapphire... they gave me the names of the appraisers who rang them most often for pricing help!

There have been incidences (one on PS a few years ago) where an appraiser valued the stone at far under value as they were only really used to dealing with diamonds. The incident on PS resulted in an appraisal value of 50% of the cost of the stone. Since the owner had spent 15 months of hard research finding the stone, he knew the market better than the appraiser - he sent the stone to a specialist appraiser and I believe it came back with a far more realistic appraised value of slightly more than he had paid!

 

[T L]

A gemmologist should be able to tell you if a sapphire has only been subjected to low heat - if so, it will not have been Be diffused as this requires the stone to be heated to just below melting point. ]

I just wanted to stress that gemmologists should not be confused with jewellers. Gemmologists and jewellers are a different breed! Also, there are gemmologists who specialise in diamonds and gemmologists who specialise in coloured gemstones. Very few specialise in both (although there are some).

When I read your post I hadn't noticed you had said the ring had melee sapphires in a wedding band (I've re-read it now and you clearly did say that ) but I had assumed you were talking about a large single stone and if so and this was a significant purchase (for you) and you wanted to insure it for it's proper replacement value, a lab report would be something I personally would want. However, for smaller stones or a less significant purchase, like Pandora has said, I wouldn't get a lab report.

I personally will accept just heat in a sapphire but absolutely nothing else. No dyes, filling, Be diffusion etc.

The high temperatures used for diffusion will destroy any silk in the stone, or rutile needles. So if you find a sapphire with a needle or silk, assume it's lower temperature heat, which means heat only (no diffusion). If the needles are very intact, it's probably not treated at all. I just bought a sapphire with some needles, and I'm not sending it off to a lab. However, there are many sapphires without silk or needles that may need to be sent to be tested for diffusion.

 

[PrecisionGem]

For stones that small it wouldn't make any sense to send them out for a lab report. The report would cost many times more than the stone would.
Heating most often increases the value of the stone, as it can produce a better color. Last month in Tucson I was buying some sapphires from Sri Lanka, and working with some larger stone 4+ cts. I was offered from the same dealer an unheated stone that was $4000, and a heated stone about the same size that was twice the price. Side by side the heated stone was more attractive, had more life, and richer color. Aside from people on Pricescope, I'd say 95% of the consumers wouldn't care about heated vs non heated, and the more attractive stone would be the one most people would buy.

 

[T L]

For stones that small it wouldn't make any sense to send them out for a lab report. The report would cost many times more than the stone would.
Heating most often increases the value of the stone, as it can produce a better color. Last month in Tucson I was buying some sapphires from Sri Lanka, and working with some larger stone 4+ cts. I was offered from the same dealer an unheated stone that was $4000, and a heated stone about the same size that was twice the price. Side by side the heated stone was more attractive, had more life, and richer color. Aside from people on Pricescope, I'd say 95% of the consumers wouldn't care about heated vs non heated, and the more attractive stone would be the one most people would buy.

True, but that's not the point. No one wants to spend $4K on a heated stone that turns out to be diffused (if they knew what diffusion was all about).

An AGL memo is around $55 + S&H and insurance back and forth for a single stone around 2 to 3 carats. Sometimes diffusion can be diagnostically tested, and there is no need for additional testing for diffusion with an LA-ICP-MS machine. However, at the time of writing this, that is an $100 extra charge (through AGL) for that LA-ICP-MS testing, if it is required for determining diffusion. It depends on what you paid for the stone, and/or if you care enough about it to spend the extra money.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Maybe you didn't read it clearly, the UNHEATED stone was $4000, the heated one over $8000.

Anyways, back to this initial posting, it wouldn't make sense to test such small stones. Little sapphires like the ones in the ring in the picture are $10 to $30 each, I don't think there would be any difference in price for that size one way or the other. Most people don't care one way or another unless they are on Pricescope. Even then I have had people buy a stone that I have heated and say "don't tell TL that it's heated." It's the Pricescope peer pressure thing.

 

[T L]

Maybe you didn't read it clearly, the UNHEATED stone was $4000, the heated one over $8000.

Anyways, back to this initial posting, it wouldn't make sense to test such small stones. Little sapphires like the ones in the ring in the picture are $10 to $30 each, I don't think there would be any difference in price for that size one way or the other. Most people don't care one way or another unless they are on Pricescope. Even then I have had people buy a stone that I have heated and say "don't tell TL that it's heated." It's the Pricescope peer pressure thing.

Gene,
While I agree that it's not probably necessary to test such tiny stones, I have nothing against heated stones, or even diffused stones. I DO have a problem with overpaying for a stone that is diffused. I have heated sapphires myself, and no one in this forum looks down on diffused stones if one is paying an appropriate price for one. Unfortunately, some diffused sapphires are not properly disclosed and sold for much more money than they're worth. I certainly think you or any vendor with high ethics would never sell a diffused sapphire for $4K, $8K, or any large sum of money.

If all is equal, cut, clarity, color, carat weight, then a regular heated stone is much more valuable than a diffused stone, but I see vendors selling diffused stones as "heated." They can do that, as they are not really lying (a diffused stone is also heated), but they are not fully disclosing the truth either, and these stones are priced as only heated. It happens all the time and that is what disturbs me, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

 

[PrecisionGem]

TL, I totally agree with your last post.

 

[Chicago Girl]

So is it safe to say that the conclusion seems to be......

Heat treated (and no other treatments) sapphires are generally acceptable.

It's nearly impossible to get untreated smaller sized sapphires (such as the sapphires in the picture I posted)

Even if a jeweler tells me the sapphires are ONLY heat treated, there's no way to really confirm that unless I get a laboratory report.

But it's pointless to get a lab report regarding such small sapphires.

 

[Treenbean]

Sounds like that's it in a nutshell. Do you love the band? If so it's the one. The whole "mind clear" thing is important, you don't want to look at your ring and have your heart sink, you want your heart to sing!

 

[T L]

So is it safe to say that the conclusion seems to be......

Heat treated (and no other treatments) sapphires are generally acceptable.

It's nearly impossible to get untreated smaller sized sapphires (such as the sapphires in the picture I posted)

Even if a jeweler tells me the sapphires are ONLY heat treated, there's no way to really confirm that unless I get a laboratory report.

But it's pointless to get a lab report regarding such small sapphires.

To point one:
I will say that diffused sapphires are also acceptable, as any treatment, IF AND ONLY IF you know what you're getting, and you're paying a fair price. I have recommended diffused sapphires in the past to people who are on a strict and small budget, but want a big look. However, plain heat treatment without any other form of treatment is the most acceptable treatment for most gemstone purists/collectors. Also know that sapphires are not just diffused these days, but filled, coated, irradiated as well as heated and diffused. Synthetics are also sold often as natural as well.

To point three:
A REPUTABLE lab report is the most proper way to determine that, unless you are an experienced gemologist, or someone who knows the tell-tale inclusions to look for in a non-diffused or unheated stone. However, sometimes diffusion detection requires very expensive machines, such as the LA-ICP-MS, to determine diffusion, or the lack of it, with 99% accuracy.

Your other points are pretty spot on.

 

[Chicago Girl]

I really love the band - I love the way it looks with my e-ring. I agree, the "mind clear" thing is so important. But I'm not certain that I'm 100% mind clean yet, b/c it seems like I could still be getting sapphires that have other treatments in addition to heat, and there's no way for me to verify that.

If anyone has any other ideas or options, please let me know.

 

[Chicago Girl]

Chicago Girl|1329841743|3130831 wrote:
So is it safe to say that the conclusion seems to be......

Heat treated (and no other treatments) sapphires are generally acceptable.

It's nearly impossible to get untreated smaller sized sapphires (such as the sapphires in the picture I posted)

Even if a jeweler tells me the sapphires are ONLY heat treated, there's no way to really confirm that unless I get a laboratory report.

But it's pointless to get a lab report regarding such small sapphires.




To point one:
I will say that diffused sapphires are also acceptable, as any treatment, IF AND ONLY IF you know what you're getting, and you're paying a fair price. I have recommended diffused sapphires in the past to people who are on a strict and small budget, but want a big look. However, plain heat treatment without any other form of treatment is the most acceptable treatment for most gemstone purists/collectors. Also know that sapphires are not just diffused these days, but filled, coated, irradiated as well as heated and diffused.

To point three:
A REPUTABLE lab report is the most proper way to determine that, unless you are an experienced gemologist, or someone who knows the tell-tale inclusions to look for in a non-diffused or unheated stone. However, sometimes diffusion detection requires very expensive machines, such as the LA-ICP-MS, to determine diffusion, or the lack of it, with 99% accuracy.

Your other points are pretty spot on.

In all honesty....am I just SOL then?! What do informed people (like yourselves) do if they want sapphires that are smaller in size like the ones I posted in my pic?

 

[T L]

I really love the band - I love the way it looks with my e-ring. I agree, the "mind clear" thing is so important. But I'm not certain that I'm 100% mind clean yet, b/c it seems like I could still be getting sapphires that have other treatments in addition to heat, and there's no way for me to verify that.

If anyone has any other ideas or options, please let me know.

I'm not sure how much you paid for the ring, but my guess is that if most of the cost would cover the diamonds and the metal, and you're not overpaying for it, then I wouldn't worry about it. If it really bugs you, then stay away from sapphires (or all corundum) unless you're prepared to pay the cost for testing them. I personally wouldn't spend the money on testing those small stones though, as they're very tiny and it's not worth it. Even if they were untreated, they're so small, I don't think they would be worth that much. I understand the "mind clean" thing though. I recently spent more for testing a sapphire than the cost of the stone itself, although I do think I really underpaid for the stone.

 

[Chicago Girl]

Written by Chicago Girl » 21 Feb 2012 10:39:
I really love the band - I love the way it looks with my e-ring. I agree, the "mind clear" thing is so important. But I'm not certain that I'm 100% mind clean yet, b/c it seems like I could still be getting sapphires that have other treatments in addition to heat, and there's no way for me to verify that.

If anyone has any other ideas or options, please let me know.


I'm not sure how much you paid for the ring, but my guess is that if most of the cost would cover the diamonds and the metal, and you're not overpaying for it, then I wouldn't worry about it. If it really bugs you, then stay away from sapphires (or all corundum) unless you're prepared to pay the cost for testing them. I personally wouldn't spend the money on testing those small stones though, as they're very tiny and it's not worth it. Even if they were untreated, they're so small, I don't think they would be worth that much. I understand the "mind clean" thing though. I recently spent more for testing a sapphire than the cost of the stone itself, although I do think I really underpaid for the stone.

Thanks, TL. The ring retails at 3250 (platinum, the diamonds are G, VS). Haven't purchased it yet, but might. Appreciate all your input!