Heat treated sapphires?

[T L]

Chicago Girl|1329841743|3130831 wrote:
So is it safe to say that the conclusion seems to be......

Heat treated (and no other treatments) sapphires are generally acceptable.

It's nearly impossible to get untreated smaller sized sapphires (such as the sapphires in the picture I posted)

Even if a jeweler tells me the sapphires are ONLY heat treated, there's no way to really confirm that unless I get a laboratory report.

But it's pointless to get a lab report regarding such small sapphires.




To point one:
I will say that diffused sapphires are also acceptable, as any treatment, IF AND ONLY IF you know what you're getting, and you're paying a fair price. I have recommended diffused sapphires in the past to people who are on a strict and small budget, but want a big look. However, plain heat treatment without any other form of treatment is the most acceptable treatment for most gemstone purists/collectors. Also know that sapphires are not just diffused these days, but filled, coated, irradiated as well as heated and diffused.

To point three:
A REPUTABLE lab report is the most proper way to determine that, unless you are an experienced gemologist, or someone who knows the tell-tale inclusions to look for in a non-diffused or unheated stone. However, sometimes diffusion detection requires very expensive machines, such as the LA-ICP-MS, to determine diffusion, or the lack of it, with 99% accuracy.

Your other points are pretty spot on.

In all honesty....am I just SOL then?! What do informed people (like yourselves) do if they want sapphires that are smaller in size like the ones I posted in my pic?

I stay away from sapphire melee to be honest, as well as any tiny corundum. Most consumers don't really care though, and I don't think its a big deal in a few small melee. I've seen some melee sapphire jewelry, such as bracelets with lots of stones, and they're very expensive, and those are a rip off, as the gems are probably diffused (ever see the sapphire "rainbow" jewelry that is common in the marketplace - STAY AWAY!!). For your ring, it probably doesn't make a big monetary difference because there's just a few stones in the band. It's still very pretty, and I wouldn't personally lose sleep over it, as it's not the major piece on your hand and is there to just highlight your diamond ring.

 

[T L]

Written by Chicago Girl » 21 Feb 2012 10:39:
I really love the band - I love the way it looks with my e-ring. I agree, the "mind clear" thing is so important. But I'm not certain that I'm 100% mind clean yet, b/c it seems like I could still be getting sapphires that have other treatments in addition to heat, and there's no way for me to verify that.

If anyone has any other ideas or options, please let me know.


I'm not sure how much you paid for the ring, but my guess is that if most of the cost would cover the diamonds and the metal, and you're not overpaying for it, then I wouldn't worry about it. If it really bugs you, then stay away from sapphires (or all corundum) unless you're prepared to pay the cost for testing them. I personally wouldn't spend the money on testing those small stones though, as they're very tiny and it's not worth it. Even if they were untreated, they're so small, I don't think they would be worth that much. I understand the "mind clean" thing though. I recently spent more for testing a sapphire than the cost of the stone itself, although I do think I really underpaid for the stone.

Thanks, TL. The ring retails at 3250 (platinum, the diamonds are G, VS). Haven't purchased it yet, but might. Appreciate all your input!

I need more photos, but what is the total carat weight of the diamonds? Kind of pricey for what looks to be a tiny band with such small stones, even if they are G VS. Also be aware that a jeweler can state a diamond is a certain color/clarity and it can be less.

Also look at some more antique sapphire/diamond bands, as diffusion didn't really take place until the latter portion of the 20th century, and that might help with the "mind clean" issue if the stones are original to the setting (you would hope).

 

[Pandora II]

I've just done a quite important pair of custom cufflinks for my BIL with very expensive moonstones that were cut to my own design. They are being set with blue sapphire melee halos.

I asked the guy whose managing the project to buy me 2mm blue sapphires and sent a pic of the colour. I didn't worry at all - the chances of them being diffused are extremely slim. I'm 99.9% certain that they will have been heated.

Frankly things like filling, coating and dyeing are not issues I would forsee with melee - you also need multiple surface cracks to dye or fill.

I would be perfectly happy to buy a band with sapphires like yours and not worry for even a nanosecond.

 

[Chicago Girl]

I need more photos, but what is the total carat weight of the diamonds? Kind of pricey for what looks to be a tiny band with such small stones, even if they are G VS. Also be aware that a jeweler can state a diamond is a certain color/clarity and it can be less.

Also look at some more antique sapphire/diamond bands, as diffusion didn't really take place until the latter portion of the 20th century, and that might help with the "mind clean" issue if the stones are original to the setting (you would hope).

Sigh, I both love and hate Price scope! It's so so informative, and yet sometimes I think, ignorance is bliss! I actually can't remember the tcw of the diamonds, but it's an eternity band so it goes all the way around. I will find out the exact tcw. I only have a couple more pics and they're not that great, but I've attached them.

If anyone happens to know of any reputable gemologists in Chicago, let me know!

 

[T L]

I need more photos, but what is the total carat weight of the diamonds? Kind of pricey for what looks to be a tiny band with such small stones, even if they are G VS. Also be aware that a jeweler can state a diamond is a certain color/clarity and it can be less.

Also look at some more antique sapphire/diamond bands, as diffusion didn't really take place until the latter portion of the 20th century, and that might help with the "mind clean" issue if the stones are original to the setting (you would hope).

Sigh, I both love and hate Price scope! It's so so informative, and yet sometimes I think, ignorance is bliss! I actually can't remember the tcw of the diamonds, but it's an eternity band so it goes all the way around. I will find out the exact tcw. I only have a couple more pics and they're not that great, but I've attached them.

If anyone happens to know of any reputable gemologists in Chicago, let me know!

Is it a designer name, or a B&M store? That would account for the higher price. I know metal prices have gone up, but I would think that it would be a fair price to pay if it were diamonds going all the way around, and not just sapphires and diamonds. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, as I am "Miss Bargain Hunter." Most gemologists only know diamonds, and still wouldn't be able to tell if the sapphires were diffused. Did you check the stores downtown on Wabash? They might have something more reasonable, or check out antique shows or preowned jewelry.

 

[Chicago Girl]

Frankly things like filling, coating and dyeing are not issues I would forsee with melee - you also need multiple surface cracks to dye or fill.

I'm sorry, can you elaborate? Do you mean that the other types of treatments that you mentioned (filling, coating, etc) are not commonly used for smaller sized gemstones?

 

[T L]

Frankly things like filling, coating and dyeing are not issues I would forsee with melee - you also need multiple surface cracks to dye or fill.

I'm sorry, can you elaborate? Do you mean that the other types of treatments that you mentioned (filling, coating, etc) are not commonly used for smaller sized gemstones?

Not Pandora, but that is correct. Actually the two biggest things I would worry about with small melee are concerned are diffusion and synthetics.

 

[Chicago Girl]

Is it a designer name, or a B&M store? That would account for the higher price. I know metal prices have gone up, but I would think that it would be a fair price to pay if it were diamonds going all the way around, and not just sapphires and diamonds. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, as I am "Miss Bargain Hunter." Most gemologists only know diamonds, and still wouldn't be able to tell if the sapphires were diffused. Did you check the stores downtown on Wabash? They might have something more reasonable, or check out antique shows or preowned jewelry.

TL, it's a B&M store located in Jeweler's row on Chicago (which is Wabash). My fiance actually purchased his wedding band from there. We got my e-ring from Good Old Gold (thanks to pricescope!), but for my wedding band I really want to see it in person before we buy, which is why we're going local this time (I live in Chicago). I will continue searching....thanks for all your input.

 

[T L]

Is it a designer name, or a B&M store? That would account for the higher price. I know metal prices have gone up, but I would think that it would be a fair price to pay if it were diamonds going all the way around, and not just sapphires and diamonds. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, as I am "Miss Bargain Hunter." Most gemologists only know diamonds, and still wouldn't be able to tell if the sapphires were diffused. Did you check the stores downtown on Wabash? They might have something more reasonable, or check out antique shows or preowned jewelry.

TL, it's a B&M store located in Jeweler's row on Chicago (which is Wabash). My fiance actually purchased his wedding band from there. We got my e-ring from Good Old Gold (thanks to pricescope!), but for my wedding band I really want to see it in person before we buy, which is why we're going local this time (I live in Chicago). I will continue searching....thanks for all your input.

Wow, their rent must have gone up down there, but metal prices did go up too. I guess I have a problem spending that much on something that could be synthetic or diffused, but for me it's more of a "mind thing" than it is for other people. I would also look online with reputable dealers to find comparable rings, and see if the prices are about the same, or more, or less, as I could be wrong about the pricing thing. I do love to shop pawn stores, and antique shows, as I find some preowned jewelry to be very good buys, and they have spoiled me.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Why don't you ask the jeweler what the price would be with out the sapphires, but all diamonds? Then get a feel for what he is charging for the sapphires since the setting fee would be about the same. There are what, maybe 8 sapphires total?

 

[Chicago Girl]

Why don't you ask the jeweler what the price would be with out the sapphires, but all diamonds? Then get a feel for what he is charging for the sapphires since the setting fee would be about the same. There are what, maybe 8 sapphires total?

I like that idea. I will do that, and find out some other info from the jeweler and get back to you guys. Thank you so much.

 

[LD]

Frankly things like filling, coating and dyeing are not issues I would forsee with melee - you also need multiple surface cracks to dye or fill.

I'm sorry, can you elaborate? Do you mean that the other types of treatments that you mentioned (filling, coating, etc) are not commonly used for smaller sized gemstones?

Because smaller stones are very rarely treated in this manner. Diffusion and synthetics as TL said are really the only concerns. Interestingly, I know that some TV shopping channels do have diffused sapphires in melee size so it's not impossible.

I very much like Gene's idea of asking how much a plain diamond ring would be. If, for you, mind clean means natural and untreated then perhaps a full diamond ring is the way to go.

 

[Treenbean]

Chicago girl that price seems high. I think for that price you could have whiteflash or BGD make you a band the way you want it with stones you are okay with. (fourth picture down) https://www.pricescope.com/forum/sh...agement-ring-folder-eye-candy-t5429-5670.html

This jeweler (who I don't know anything about) has a function on their site where you can customize however you want. I did a quick ring with just diamonds and it came out to $2199.00 in platinum. http://shopping.schubachstore.com/Style-9299-Bezel-Set-Round-Stone-Anniversary-Band-With-Milgraining


Another option is Montana sapphire from a reputable dealer. Gem mountain heats their sapphires and describes their process. If you are okay with heating but not diffusing buy some nice Montana sapphires and go custom with the band. Mind clean and you're in total control of the process. http://gemmountainmt.com/Gemstones.aspx

 

[Chicago Girl]

Chicago girl that price seems high. I think for that price you could have whiteflash or BGD make you a band the way you want it with stones you are okay with. (fourth picture down) [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/the-forum-engagement-ring-folder-eye-candy.5429/page-190']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/the-forum-engagement-ring-folder-eye-candy.5429/page-190[/URL]

This jeweler (who I don't know anything about) has a function on their site where you can customize however you want. I did a quick ring with just diamonds and it came out to $2199.00 in platinum. http://shopping.schubachstore.com/Style-9299-Bezel-Set-Round-Stone-Anniversary-Band-With-Milgraining


Another option is Montana sapphire from a reputable dealer. Gem mountain heats their sapphires and describes their process. If you are okay with heating but not diffusing buy some nice Montana sapphires and go custom with the band. Mind clean and you're in total control of the process. http://gemmountainmt.com/Gemstones.aspx

Thanks for all that info. I do like that band in your first link, I really do. The only problem is I really want to see whatever band I get in person before I purchase it, so I'm not sure if I can use an online vendor for that.

As far as Gem Mountain - wouldn't this still be the same issue that you can't necessarily trust a vendor who says a sapphire is only heat treated?

 

[Chicago Girl]

Chicago girl that price seems high. I think for that price you could have whiteflash or BGD make you a band the way you want it with stones you are okay with. (fourth picture down) [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/the-forum-engagement-ring-folder-eye-candy.5429/page-190']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/the-forum-engagement-ring-folder-eye-candy.5429/page-190[/URL]

Question about both whiteflash and BGD - they only have heat treated sapphires?

 

[Treenbean]

They disclose the type of heat treatment that they perform (regarding gem mountain). Are you ok with thermal enhancement? Just not BE diffusion right?
I understand about wanting to see the band before you buy it but to have the non-treated or just heat enhanced stones you may have to compromise something.


melee with treatment disclosed
http://awesomegems.com/sapphire-blue-1.html

 

[Treenbean]

I'm sure BGD and Whiteflash would be able to find out the treatment on their melee.

 

[Chicago Girl]

They disclose the type of heat treatment that they perform. Are you ok with thermal enhancement? Just not BE diffusion right?
I understand about wanting to see the band before you buy it but to have the non-treated or just heat enhanced stones you may have to compromise something.

Correct, I am ok with thermal enhancement (assuming that's the same thing as heat?) for the melee. The more I look at similar bands online, the more I feel like that 3250 price is too high. Very disappointing - they really are a reputable jeweler in Chicago, at least to the general public.

I am so saddened about all this stuff I'm learning about sapphires. So much stuff I did not know before.

So here's another question I have. You say that Whiteflash and BGD will disclose the type of treatment they do to their sapphires - but by "disclose" does that mean they give reputable laboratory certificates? Or do you just take their word at face value?

 

[Treenbean]

I can't speak for them but my gut says if it's melee size stones there won't be a cert. But I could be wrong.

Don't be sad! Knowledge is power. It's easy to go to a B&M store and buy something pretty. It's something else entirely to find unheated undiffused melee to wear in band that signifies the bond between two people. There is a 14th century italian ring engraved with "For love thou wast made and for love I wear thee". Rings are important. Go slow find the right one.

 

[Chicago Girl]

I can't speak for them but my gut says if it's melee size stones there won't be a cert.

So then in your opinion what is the difference b/t buying from one of those online vendors and taking their word for how they treat their sapphires, and buying from a local B&M store? Do you think those two online vendors are just more reputable?

 

[T L]

Honestly, I don't think you'll ever get "mind clean" melee unless you dig them up, cut them, and completely source them yourself. No one is going to send melee to be tested since it's not worth it. As I said earlier, you might have more peace of mind if you can get an antique piece with sapphires original to the piece from someone highly trustworthy. Regardless, I wouldn't pay too much for a band with tiny sapphire melee, as the sapphires will be of very little value, and I would place most of the value in the diamonds and metal.

 

[Chicago Girl]

Honestly, I don't think you'll ever get "mind clean" melee unless you dig them up, cut them, and completely source them yourself. No one is going to send melee to be tested since it's not worth it. As I said earlier, you might have more peace of mind if you can get an antique piece with sapphires original to the piece from someone highly trustworthy.

I do like the idea of an antique piece. I'll have to start looking at places in Chicago that sell them. In the meantime, please pray for me that I find an all diamond wedding band that I love!

 

[T L]

Honestly, I don't think you'll ever get "mind clean" melee unless you dig them up, cut them, and completely source them yourself. No one is going to send melee to be tested since it's not worth it. As I said earlier, you might have more peace of mind if you can get an antique piece with sapphires original to the piece from someone highly trustworthy.

I do like the idea of an antique piece. I'll have to start looking at places in Chicago that sell them. In the meantime, please pray for me that I find an all diamond wedding band that I love!

Look online too, there are some reputable online sellers of antique jewelry like Lang antiques, and I'm sure others can mention some more.

Here's a ring like yours, but all diamonds.

http://www.langantiques.com/products/item/110-1-961

 

[Chicago Girl]

Look online too, there are some reputable online sellers of antique jewelry like Lang antiques, and I'm sure others can mention some more.

But then it cuts into the issue of not being able to view the band in person and trying it on with my e-ring prior to buying. I'm picky I guess.

 

[T L]

Look online too, there are some reputable online sellers of antique jewelry like Lang antiques, and I'm sure others can mention some more.

But then it cuts into the issue of not being able to view the band in person and trying it on with my e-ring prior to buying. I'm picky I guess.

Try intergem too, as the shows come to the Rosemont area four times a year. They have lots of antique jewelry vendors.

 

[winternight]

Honestly, if you love it I would just buy it. I just went to Intergem specifically looking for a colored gemstone/diamond stacking band and didn't see much at all - I didn't see any nice stackers in the estate booths and frankly even with estate you'd have to figure out the age of the piece - nor did I see anything I liked in the more modern booths. It seems like alot of work when you already have a band you love by a jeweler with a good reputation. I'm also like you and prefer to see things in person. See if they'll lower the price some or just pay a little more to get the band you love - well unless you can easily find another - but I personally wouldn't do custom for something like that.

 

[Pandora II]

Even with antique bands, you've still got the synthetic v natural conundrum - synthetics have been around since the 1880's and were very common from the beginning of the 20th Century. They were very highly regarded and are often found in antique pieces.

The only thing the online vendors have in their favour is that they will know their dealer. You will NEVER get a report on melee unless you are prepared to pay potentially 10 times the cost of each stone to have it tested (and even then you may not get a definitive answer if the lab can't be sure - plus some Madagascan blue sapphires naturally contain Beryllium so false positives are a potential risk).

Montana sapphires would be your best bet for heat only - but you may not get the same colour.

 

[EmmaJoy]

So with Sapphires, I know there is a distinction between just heat, and heat with beryllium, is there also a distinction between "normal" heath and high heat? If I am okay with a stone being heated (tight budget!) should I still be concerned about other forms of heating (that would, say, destroy the integrity of the stone) and get it tested?

 

[chrono]

I am afraid that when it comes to small sapphire melees in the band, just assume that they are heat treated no matter what at the very least. Just make sure the stones are nice looking (no obvious clarity issues and the colour isn't too dark). There are very few stones in your band (6 or thereabouts, correct) and they are very small. In the overall cost, the diamond melees and metal cost are probably the bulk of the price you paid. In terms of pricing, very few B&M stores can compete with online vendors (although some online vendors do have a front store customers can visit).

As with any vendor, you are going to have to rely on trust when it comes to melee stones. It just isn't cost effective to send such tiny stones to the lab for verification. You will face the same issues of any stone being a synthetic when looking at antique sapphire rings.

Emmajoy,
"Normal" heat is generally just plain heating with no mineral additives. For diffusion, it requires much higher temperatures, where the sapphire is almost at melting point, hence the commonly used term of "high heat" used on PS. That said, vendor cannot always tell you if a stone has been diffused or not. A diffused stone is still very wearable and the structural integrity of the stone is sound, although there are talks about whether it is more brittle than a heat only sapphire.

 

[T L]

Even with antique bands, you've still got the synthetic v natural conundrum - synthetics have been around since the 1880's and were very common from the beginning of the 20th Century. They were very highly regarded and are often found in antique pieces.

The only thing the online vendors have in their favour is that they will know their dealer. You will NEVER get a report on melee unless you are prepared to pay potentially 10 times the cost of each stone to have it tested (and even then you may not get a definitive answer if the lab can't be sure - plus some Madagascan blue sapphires naturally contain Beryllium so false positives are a potential risk).

Montana sapphires would be your best bet for heat only - but you may not get the same colour.

True, I forgot about synthetics back then. You would hope with a fine art deco piece, it would be natural. *sigh* - just so many issues with sapphires.