European Cut or Mine Cut Sapphires? Advice on bezel e-ring

[Vraiment]

Hello, Pricescopers! Thanks in advance for your advice, I'm a new member to Pricescope but have been reading for a few weeks and I've learned so much already from you all. I hope this is the right place for this question. I apologize for my rambling and overuse of parentheses here, the sixth paragraph (tried to bold it) has the main questions.

My boyfriend and I have just started looking at engagement rings. I have to say I'm so glad he didn't try to choose one on his own, because I have a lot of ideas about what I want, and my taste isn't super-conventional. I think he's a bit stunned because I had never talked about what I wanted, and have sent him 2 insanely long emails about details of what I want since we talked about rings last Sunday.

Anyway, I'm trying to decide if I want a sapphire (my birthstone) or a diamond. For size, looking at 1-2 carats for a diamond, likely 2 to just over three for a sapphire. I wear a 4.25, so that should look plenty large enough on me. I like a large range of sapphire colors— classic cornflower blue, Montana blue-green, violet-blue (though I don't want to constantly explain it's not a tanzanite, think that would be a problem??), lighter greenish blue, periwinkle and light blue. I am not opposed to the slight greyish tone of many montana sapphires, but find the darker ones too murky. I do like the idea of a stone from the USA (ethical mined or antique is important to me whatever the source). I really like the idea of the stone having a blend of colors or flashes of different shades, but not a straight-up color-change, if that makes sense. At Natural Sapphire Company's website (I understand some people on here are not fans of NSC, still deciding how I feel about potentially purchasing from them), I'm most into the ones they describe (under unique sapphires) as ocean blue, steel blue, bluish-green (and vice versa), ice blue and mint, as well as the cornflower and slightly lighter blues (in the blue sapphire section). I have blue/green/grey eyes so I think that might be a fun thing to match

I like cushions, rounds and ovals on me, and those seem to be the most common shapes for natural and unheated sapphires at least, but I am finding myself more and more drawn to Old European Cut Rounds (OECs) and Old Mine Cut Cushions (OMCs) in diamonds, as well as newer iterations of these, such as the August Vintage ones (any other modern versions you like?). I really love the depth and big almost unpredictable flashes of color (I guess fire and scintillation?) on these old style cuts, and just love how they look so different next to the modern round brilliant.

Out of curiosity, I tried to look for OEC and OMC sapphires, and the only ones I've found are this one below—for 170k on sale!—which is both entirely too huge and sadly out of my price range (hoping to spend under 10k, but could definitely go up to 15, maybe 20k).
http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/sapphires/c-5-blue-sapphires/p-31717-cushion-blue-sapphire-b4297/
And this one, also too big, which has sold:
http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/sapphires/c-5-blue-sapphires/p-48922-cushion-blue-sapphire-b298/
Looking at antique rings, I see a lot more sapphire cabochons or faceted sapphires being used as accents/side stones, so it makes sense that these don't seem to be available.

So does anyone know of a source for OEC and OMC sapphires, or excellent cutters that would help me with this? I am concerned about cutting from rough because I am very sensitive to color... I have not gotten a chance to look at loose sapphires yet, hence the large color range under consideration, but would hate to have someone cut for me and then find the color 'off' in some way. Do you think OECs and OMCs are not ideal cuts for sapphires in the color ranges or with the properties I am interested in highlighting? Any thoughts on the direction I should go with my search? If you had a hard time choosing between a sapphire/ruby/etc and a diamond, can you tell me about what tipped it whichever direction? Any regrets? I worry that I might get sick of the color of a sapphire (but then again, I wear a small darker one my parents gave me almost every day).


Thanks again!

A bit more about what I'd like to do for the ring, in case it might be helpful:

I know I want a bezel-set solitaire, most likely in platinum or palladium, with a hammered or more matte finish, with maybe a few accents of diamond or other gemstones on the band. I really like the work of Malcolm Betts (haven't seen in person) and Todd Reed (so beautiful in person, but I would definitely want to customize with my own stone), and I also really like the Tiffany Bezet setting (though I would have someone else create an 'inspired' setting... found some good ideas on PS). I'm just going to link to a few of these I like to show what style I mean:

Wrong metal and stone color (I really wanted it originally but I don't look great in yellow gold, and my gentleman isn't excited about a black diamond) but I love the patina and the way the diamonds are set into the band on this ring:
http://www.barneys.com/on/demandware.store/Sites-BNY-Site/default/Product-Show?pid=00505027420935

Love this Malcolm Betts, wouldn't it be beautiful with an OEC or OMC and the band of the previous one?
https://erikawinters.squarespace.com/jewelry-blog/bridal-crush-rose-cut-romance-by-malcolm-betts

I think Todd Reed's halos are so unique, I tried one on a few days ago. Pretty much the only halo I'm considering:
http://www.toddreed.com/#!/products/rings/trdr481-pd-sq-17

Similar to the last with an oval cut:
http://www.toddreed.com/#!/products/rings/trdr481-pd-oval-rc

I really like the elegance of the TIffany Bezet, and how light gets in through the sides too.
http://www.tiffany.com/Engagement/Item.aspx?mcat=148203&groupSKU=GRP10046&origin=engagement&search_params=param+0/0/0/4006/0

I was surprised by the beauty of this ring with a raw diamond halo and band from Todd Reed in person, but I'm not sure it's a top contender:
http://www.toddreed.com/#!/products/rings/trdr405-pd-19

I'd love your thoughts/concerns/etc on any of the things (diamond/sapphire, cut, sapphire color, designs etc) I'm considering. I'm excited to finally be joining Pricescope!

 

[swissmiss]

Re: European Cut or Mine Cut Sapphires? Advice on bezel e-ri

Hello, Pricescopers! Thanks in advance for your advice, I'm a new member to Pricescope but have been reading for a few weeks and I've learned so much already from you all. I hope this is the right place for this question. I apologize for my rambling and overuse of parentheses here, the sixth paragraph (tried to bold it) has the main questions.


I like cushions, rounds and ovals on me, and those seem to be the most common shapes for natural and unheated sapphires at least, but I am finding myself more and more drawn to Old European Cut Rounds (OECs) and Old Mine Cut Cushions (OMCs) in diamonds, as well as newer iterations of these, such as the August Vintage ones (any other modern versions you like?). I really love the depth and big almost unpredictable flashes of color (I guess fire and scintillation?) on these old style cuts, and just love how they look so different next to the modern round brilliant.

So does anyone know of a source for OEC and OMC sapphires, or excellent cutters that would help me with this? I am concerned about cutting from rough because I am very sensitive to color... I have not gotten a chance to look at loose sapphires yet, hence the large color range under consideration, but would hate to have someone cut for me and then find the color 'off' in some way. Do you think OECs and OMCs are not ideal cuts for sapphires in the color ranges or with the properties I am interested in highlighting? Any thoughts on the direction I should go with my search? If you had a hard time choosing between a sapphire/ruby/etc and a diamond, can you tell me about what tipped it whichever direction? Any regrets? I worry that I might get sick of the color of a sapphire (but then again, I wear a small darker one my parents gave me almost every day).



I'd love your thoughts/concerns/etc on any of the things (diamond/sapphire, cut, sapphire color, designs etc) I'm considering. I'm excited to finally be joining Pricescope!

I'm not an expert - however, I would strongly urge you to see sapphires in real life and narrow down your color preference before you consider getting some cut from rough. Also, I don't know to what extent sapphires will look as fabulous as diamonds in OEC and OMC cuts due to the slightly different refractive index (hopefully someone with more experience will chime in).

 

[FrekeChild]

Re: European Cut or Mine Cut Sapphires? Advice on bezel e-ri

I'd advise you to narrow down your color choice first and foremost. If you wanted to find colors of items (they don't have to be gems) that you like, and go from there, that would be a good starting point.

Gemstones are not cut the same way that diamonds are. Gemstones are typically cut in a way that suits the color and the shape of the rough. Diamond rough is plentiful and colored stone rough is not, despite what the marketing people from DeBeers tell you. For instance, you would not want to cut rough best suited for a 10x6mm emerald into a 6mm round.

Being super picky about color probably isn't going to suit your quest. Luckily you have a healthier budget than some, but you're going to need it if you want something so specific.

Barry Bridgestock cuts rounds that are similar to an OEC pattern, as goes Gene Flanigan, but I only know one person who tends to have actual OEC cut stones in stock, and that's Julia B Jewelry on etsy.

https://www.etsy.com/shop/JuliaBJewelry?ref=search_shop_redirect

For example:
https://www.etsy.com/listing/165806...-old-european-cut-oec?ref=shop_home_active_16

https://www.etsy.com/listing/174301890/valentines-day-sale-157-carat-old?ref=shop_home_active_22

 

[Vraiment]

Re: European Cut or Mine Cut Sapphires? Advice on bezel e-ri

Thank you, FrekeChild and swissmiss. I'm hoping to look at some sapphires to see what I really think about colors later this week/weekend, but the more I check out EOCs/OMCs and the AVRs/AVCs, I'm seeing what you mean, swissmiss, about sapphires not having the same refractive qualities and that these cuts likely wouldn't suit them the way an oval/cushion does (and as you say, FrekeChild, it wouldn't be the best use of a rarer gem to cut it down to a shape that would leave a lot of the piece wasted. I think seeing some quality sapphires in a range of color in person will help me determine whether this is something I really want. Can't have it both ways with sapphire vs diamond! And I've never been able to make myself less picky... and reading on PS isn't helping with that one bit

FrekeChild: Thanks for the links to Julia B's etsy shop. I hadn't seen her work before. I actually really like the OEC spinels, but of course spinels are not sapphires. However, I find the culet more distracting on a color gemstone, at least the loose ones, and I think it might be especially distracting with a brighter sapphire with higher contrast from skin color than say a morganite.. Maybe if I do decide to go the rough/recutting route an AVR cut would make more sense to avoid the large culet.

It's been fun looking through this website and seeing how people change their minds about things as they learn more and start truly shopping for gems and settings, I know I have a ways to go here.

 

[chrono]

Re: European Cut or Mine Cut Sapphires? Advice on bezel e-ri

Your focus seems to be on cut whereas for most coloured stoners, colour comes first. This is why you will find it a challenge to find an OMC or OEC blue sapphire in inventory; it will most likely need to be custom cut. Pricing is set by colour, first and foremost. The other thing you may or may not know is that almost all coloured stones shift, so your blue sapphire will not always look the same shade of blue most of the time. It will shift and look different indoors and outdoors, depending on the strength of lighting and type of light source. Some blue sapphires shift to an attractive hue, some not so.

In terms of size, a 2 to 3 carat sapphire is likely to be around 8 mm. Depending on the colour and treatment, expect to pay anywhere from $5k to $10k. A Montana sapphire will be less than $5K although they generally do not come in such large sizes. Since you have different tastes that most in the Trade, you are likely looking at the lower end of the price range. AVC is a proprietary cut so you will have to contact Good Old Gold if that is the design you desire.

1. Have a folder of pictures of sapphire colours you like.
2. Contact lapidaries to see if they have rough in the colour and size you want, based on the pictures you have.
a. Jeff White
b. Does Gary Braun custom cut to order?
c. Unfortunately, I don't think Gene or Barry does custom orders anymore.

You are correct that OEC and OMCs are not ideal cut for any coloured stone. The design has to be tweaked since the properties of diamonds and sapphires are very different in the way they return light. I am a coloured stoner through and through so I find diamonds boring. I much prefer emerald cuts, OMCs and OECs over other diamond shapes if pressed.

 

[FrekeChild]

Re: European Cut or Mine Cut Sapphires? Advice on bezel e-ri

An AVR was designed to have ideal light return, but the facet patterns are basically those of an OEC. Most of the AVRs have culets. Also, AVR is an exclusive diamond thing. Stones that are cut into an OEC pattern are cut into an OEC pattern, an AVR is just a slight deviant of an OEC, some (not me) would say it's a perfected OEC. Personally, I like my OECs to have more personality.

Think about how you'd set it - if you have a closed basket/some metal under the stone, you won't see skin through the culet.

Another helpful hint is to figure out the millimeter measurement you want from the center stone - a 2ct sapphire can have a 6mm spread (although it'd be deeper than wide!) or a 10mm spread and have a huge window and be flat as a pancake. 8mm is roughly the same size as a 2ct diamond, and since sapphire is more dense than diamond, an 8mm sapphire will probably weigh 2.25+cts.

What area do you live in? Do you have somewhere close by that has a wide variety of sapphires?

Another thing to think about is eyecleanliness. Sapphires are a Type II stones, which means that inclusions are typical. I'm just assuming you'll want eyeclean.

Do you have a timeframe? If your boyfriend is wanting to propose sooner rather than later, a diamond would be much easier to find.

Also, there is not really a standard for pricing unique colored sapphires. You will see that they can vary pretty widely.

If you want to post a couple pictures of colors you like, some people might have time to look around.

ETA: this is my OEC cut gray spinel

 

[FrekeChild]

Re: European Cut or Mine Cut Sapphires? Advice on bezel e-ri

I am a coloured stoner through and through so I find diamonds boring. I much prefer emerald cuts, OMCs and OECs over other diamond shapes if pressed.

LOL! I didn't know that! You still have at least three diamond keystone rings, right? I've seen your emerald...

 

[FrekeChild]

Re: European Cut or Mine Cut Sapphires? Advice on bezel e-ri

I'd add Peter Toracca to that list of cutters.
http://www.torraca.net/

I think Gene might be an option, but I wouldn't get my hopes up terribly unless he has the rough in hand.
http://precisiongem.com/index.html

And Jerry Newman
http://www.gemartservices.com/

If you figure out what color you want RIGHT NOW, I'd email them, because I know that several cutters are in Tucson at the gem show, and could keep a lookout for what you want. This is the best time of year for looking for a gemstone!

 

[FrekeChild]

Re: European Cut or Mine Cut Sapphires? Advice on bezel e-ri

Since I'm avoiding writing my letter of interest for grad school...these are just stones that caught my eye for one reason or another...

http://wildfishgems.com/inc/sdetail/10880/17892

http://wildfishgems.com/inc/sdetail/10880/15570

http://wildfishgems.com/inc/sdetail/10880/13492

http://wildfishgems.com/inc/sdetail/10880/5663

http://wildfishgems.com/inc/sdetail/10880/16196

http://wildfishgems.com/inc/sdetail/11078/14139

http://wildfishgems.com/inc/sdetail/11078/16212

http://wildfishgems.com/inc/sdetail/11084/16734

http://wildfishgems.com/inc/sdetail/10934/12860

 

[Vraiment]

Re: European Cut or Mine Cut Sapphires? Advice on bezel e-ri

These are just a few that I like, I'll post a few more, and comment a bit about what I like about each, and then answer your posts. Thanks!

 

[Vraiment]

Re: European Cut or Mine Cut Sapphires? Advice on bezel e-ri

 

[Vraiment]

Re: European Cut or Mine Cut Sapphires? Advice on bezel e-ri

 

[Vraiment]

Re: European Cut or Mine Cut Sapphires? Advice on bezel e-ri

 

[Vraiment]

Re: European Cut or Mine Cut Sapphires? Advice on bezel e-ri

Last few!

 

[Vraiment]

Re: European Cut or Mine Cut Sapphires? Advice on bezel e-ri

And now links to all of them, in order. most have videos which I find really helpful:

http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/sapphires/c-9-unique-sapphires/p-50473-cushion-unique-sapphire-u4524/

http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/sapphires/c-9-unique-sapphires/p-48301-oval-unique-sapphire-u3662/

http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/sapphires/c-9-unique-sapphires/p-47896-oval-unique-sapphire-u3627/

http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/sapphires/c-9-unique-sapphires/p-48144-cushion-unique-sapphire-u3673/

http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/sapphires/c-9-unique-sapphires/p-48241-oval-unique-sapphire-u3403/

http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/sapphires/c-9-unique-sapphires/p-50993-oval-unique-sapphire-u4554/

http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/sapphires/c-9-unique-sapphires/p-48466-cushion-unique-sapphire-u3846/

http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/sapphires/c-5-blue-sapphires/p-48651-cushion-blue-sapphire-b4929/

http://www.starruby.in/store/madagascar-sapphires/5-14-carat-gia-certified-unheated-blue-sapphire-from-madagascar

http://www.starruby.in/store/madagascar-sapphires/3-03-carat-cushion-cut-eye-clean-intense-blue-sapphire-grs

http://www.starruby.in/store/ceylonese-sapphires/3-01-carat-vvs-clarity-lustrous-intense-blue-sapphire-unheated

Having trouble getting other links on ebay, sorry.

 

[FrekeChild]

Re: European Cut or Mine Cut Sapphires? Advice on bezel e-ri

The good news is that you don't like the trade ideal colors. The bad news is that there are fewer sapphires that are the colors you like, because they aren't the trade ideal, and therefore, there is less demand for them. Unless you are in a major metropolitan area (i.e. LA, San Fran, Chicago or NYC, you're going to have a hard time finding what you're seeking in person.

1. If you have a more greenish blue sapphire, you will get asked if it's an aquamarine. So, heads up.
2. If you have a more violet-blue, you will get asked if it's a tanzanite or an amethyst. Heads up on that too.

I was once asked if my pure gray spinel was an amethyst once, it's not a bad thing, people just have no idea. People think that sapphires are blue. Period. This is a funny post from one of our cutters, Peter, about the color of sapphires:
http://www.torraca.net/2014/01/29/what-color-is-sapphire/

(On a more personal note, what you're seeking is very similar to what I wanted for my own engagement ring. I wanted spinel, but desired a chunkier cut and similar colors to what you have posted.)

At this point, I would probably start thinking about what the most important bits of criteria for your stone:
A. color
B. cut
C. size
D. shape
E. clarity
F. treatment

The above are in no particular order. But you need to figure out exactly what you're looking for for each parameter, and where you are ok with "settling".

For example, initially I was looking for: supernova oval, 6x8mm, green-blue/blue/violet
What I got: Barry round, 6.4mm, color shifting purple to blue

Less important, and easier is finding a setting, since that can be custom made to your specifications.

 

[FrekeChild]

Re: European Cut or Mine Cut Sapphires? Advice on bezel e-ri

Also, you really should figure out if you want a sapphire or a diamond. If you really want a diamond, searching for sapphires and talking about sapphires is a waste of time.

Searching for and wearing a colored stone engagement ring isn't really the same as having a diamond instead. People typically don't take gemstones as being as valuable or as credible as a diamond, and will put you down. I don't know why this happens, but it does. Well, I do, and the reason is: DeBeers Marketing. But I digress. Searching and finding a gemstone for an engagement ring is tough too - you can't just order what you want the way you typically can with a diamond. Odds are good that you will not be able to replace it if something were to happen to it.

I think I'd address diamond vs. sapphire first.

 

[Vraiment]

Re: European Cut or Mine Cut Sapphires? Advice on bezel e-ri

Your focus seems to be on cut whereas for most coloured stoners, colour comes first. This is why you will find it a challenge to find an OMC or OEC blue sapphire in inventory; it will most likely need to be custom cut. Pricing is set by colour, first and foremost. The other thing you may or may not know is that almost all coloured stones shift, so your blue sapphire will not always look the same shade of blue most of the time. It will shift and look different indoors and outdoors, depending on the strength of lighting and type of light source. Some blue sapphires shift to an attractive hue, some not so.

In terms of size, a 2 to 3 carat sapphire is likely to be around 8 mm. Depending on the colour and treatment, expect to pay anywhere from $5k to $10k. A Montana sapphire will be less than $5K although they generally do not come in such large sizes. Since you have different tastes that most in the Trade, you are likely looking at the lower end of the price range. AVC is a proprietary cut so you will have to contact Good Old Gold if that is the design you desire.

1. Have a folder of pictures of sapphire colours you like.
2. Contact lapidaries to see if they have rough in the colour and size you want, based on the pictures you have.
a. Jeff White
b. Does Gary Braun custom cut to order?
c. Unfortunately, I don't think Gene or Barry does custom orders anymore.

You are correct that OEC and OMCs are not ideal cut for any coloured stone. The design has to be tweaked since the properties of diamonds and sapphires are very different in the way they return light. I am a coloured stoner through and through so I find diamonds boring. I much prefer emerald cuts, OMCs and OECs over other diamond shapes if pressed.

Thanks Chrono! I'm okay with some color shift (I think the pictures of sapphire colors I like shows that) but I don't really want one to do a really wild change (http://www.gemselect.com/photos/color-change-sapphire/color-change-sapphire-gem-276427a.jpg is a little much for my taste). I really like to see flashes of different shades and colors in the stones as they move.

I am concerned about how easily I can find what I want in a large enough size, since it isn't the popular taste. I wondered if GOG would do a sapphire... I don't want to contact them until I have a better handle on what I want, figure out if getting it cut into OEC (or really AVC) is important enough, or if I'll end up choosing a diamond instead. Thank you for your advice and list of lapidaries. I'm going to have to look through your posts to see some of your collection!

 

[Vraiment]

Re: European Cut or Mine Cut Sapphires? Advice on bezel e-ri

FrekeChild, I'm going to try to address everything you've posted on here now... but first I want to say thank you so much for your advice. I really appreciate it. Oh, and that gray spinel is so gorgeous!

An AVR was designed to have ideal light return, but the facet patterns are basically those of an OEC. Most of the AVRs have culets. Also, AVR is an exclusive diamond thing. Stones that are cut into an OEC pattern are cut into an OEC pattern, an AVR is just a slight deviant of an OEC, some (not me) would say it's a perfected OEC. Personally, I like my OECs to have more personality.

Think about how you'd set it - if you have a closed basket/some metal under the stone, you won't see skin through the culet.

Another helpful hint is to figure out the millimeter measurement you want from the center stone - a 2ct sapphire can have a 6mm spread (although it'd be deeper than wide!) or a 10mm spread and have a huge window and be flat as a pancake. 8mm is roughly the same size as a 2ct diamond, and since sapphire is more dense than diamond, an 8mm sapphire will probably weigh 2.25+cts.

What area do you live in? Do you have somewhere close by that has a wide variety of sapphires?

Another thing to think about is eyecleanliness. Sapphires are a Type II stones, which means that inclusions are typical. I'm just assuming you'll want eyeclean.

Do you have a timeframe? If your boyfriend is wanting to propose sooner rather than later, a diamond would be much easier to find.

Also, there is not really a standard for pricing unique colored sapphires. You will see that they can vary pretty widely.

If you want to post a couple pictures of colors you like, some people might have time to look around.

ETA: this is my OEC cut gray spinel

I think I agree with you that I don't truly prefer AVR to OEC, I like the quirkiness of the cuts and, well, the sort of sentimental value of having something that's been worn and loved before. I was thinking the culets looked smaller on AVRs, but I guess that may have to do with the pictures I've seen and also varies between OECs.

Good idea that setting could help hide the culet's obviousness. I guess I was thinking whatever setting would have an open space under the stone (is that the gallery?) but there is a lot of flexibility in terms of design. Still trying to figure out how much light needs to come in on the sides or not... that's one of the reasons I'm preferring lighter sapphires for the ring, I would hate to have the bezel setting darken it (though I get the impression that won't happen too much or at all with a nicely cut stone?

I am still trying to figure the size I want for the spread, I do think 6 to 8 mm diameter if it were round. That's one of the reasons I'm struggling with cushions and ovals; I really would rather have something nearly square or round. On NSC at least, I'm not finding many rounds in the lighter colors that I really like.

I am in Kansas City, which is not exactly a hotbed for fine jewelry from my understanding. I went to one top store and they had almost nothing for sapphires, and no Montana sapphires, but they showed willingness to bring things in for me to see. I'm going to at least three other places Saturday to look around. If push came to shove, I'd probably go to NYC for a few days and set up appointments at NSC, GOG, etc. Do you have any places you would recommend in NYC, or Chicago/LA?

As far as clarity, I'm game for silk, that's part of why I prefer unheated, but don't like surface issues or large or obvious inclusions.

And there's no timeframe. I don't think we'll get married till next spring (I would honestly just go to a courthouse somewhere beautiful this April but I think he wants to do something bigger), and so long as he doesn't have to do the bulk of the shopping/researching, he's not going to get too impatient. I guess it would be nice to have something within 3 months, but not a big deal if it takes longer really.

Is your spinel from JuliaB on etsy? I really like it. Looks like it really picks up light.

 

[Vraiment]

Re: European Cut or Mine Cut Sapphires? Advice on bezel e-ri

I'd add Peter Toracca to that list of cutters.
http://www.torraca.net/

I think Gene might be an option, but I wouldn't get my hopes up terribly unless he has the rough in hand.
http://precisiongem.com/index.html

And Jerry Newman
http://www.gemartservices.com/

If you figure out what color you want RIGHT NOW, I'd email them, because I know that several cutters are in Tucson at the gem show, and could keep a lookout for what you want. This is the best time of year for looking for a gemstone!

Thanks for the additional list of gem cutters. I hadn't seen Jerry's page before, some beautiful stuff. I only wish I were decisive enough to have someone look at things in Tucson for me!

Since I'm avoiding writing my letter of interest for grad school...these are just stones that caught my eye for one reason or another...

http://wildfishgems.com/inc/sdetail/10880/17892

http://wildfishgems.com/inc/sdetail/10880/15570

http://wildfishgems.com/inc/sdetail/10880/13492

http://wildfishgems.com/inc/sdetail/10880/5663

http://wildfishgems.com/inc/sdetail/10880/16196

http://wildfishgems.com/inc/sdetail/11078/14139

http://wildfishgems.com/inc/sdetail/11078/16212

http://wildfishgems.com/inc/sdetail/11084/16734

http://wildfishgems.com/inc/sdetail/10934/12860

Thanks for these too. I find a couple of them too teal, too dark, but wildfishgems is new to me. Even though it's not what I've been saying I want, of course I like the Mogok cornflower blue the best, I can almost always pick the most expensive thing... it's been a problem for me since I was a kid...

The good news is that you don't like the trade ideal colors. The bad news is that there are fewer sapphires that are the colors you like, because they aren't the trade ideal, and therefore, there is less demand for them. Unless you are in a major metropolitan area (i.e. LA, San Fran, Chicago or NYC, you're going to have a hard time finding what you're seeking in person.

1. If you have a more greenish blue sapphire, you will get asked if it's an aquamarine. So, heads up.
2. If you have a more violet-blue, you will get asked if it's a tanzanite or an amethyst. Heads up on that too.

I was once asked if my pure gray spinel was an amethyst once, it's not a bad thing, people just have no idea. People think that sapphires are blue. Period. This is a funny post from one of our cutters, Peter, about the color of sapphires:
http://www.torraca.net/2014/01/29/what-color-is-sapphire/

(On a more personal note, what you're seeking is very similar to what I wanted for my own engagement ring. I wanted spinel, but desired a chunkier cut and similar colors to what you have posted.)

At this point, I would probably start thinking about what the most important bits of criteria for your stone:
A. color
B. cut
C. size
D. shape
E. clarity
F. treatment

The above are in no particular order. But you need to figure out exactly what you're looking for for each parameter, and where you are ok with "settling".

For example, initially I was looking for: supernova oval, 6x8mm, green-blue/blue/violet
What I got: Barry round, 6.4mm, color shifting purple to blue

Less important, and easier is finding a setting, since that can be custom made to your specifications.

Would you suggest NYC or one of those other markets as best for traveling to look at sapphires in person? I could probably do two trips total on this.

On the color confusion, so glad you said this! I started lurking on PS and other gem sites trying to figure out if people would always think a violet-blue sapphire was a tanzanite. Tanzanite's gorgeous, as is Aquamarine, but I have to decide if that whole thing would get old... generally I like talking about jewelry though, and I would guess my friends and family would expect me to either get something very unique or something incredibly classic. Most people do think I have excellent taste, if unconventional, in clothing, art, design, jewelry, etc. I tried to warn my boyfriend that if I chose to get a sapphire (especially in an unusual color) people would react strangely, told him I was willing to go super-conventional if that's what he wants (told him then people would know he spent $$ on me). He doesn't care, just wants me to have whatever I want for the ring. On the ring commentary, I'd also be a little annoyed if I got the classic deep cornflower and had everyone say "just like Kate Middleton/Diana!" all the time to me too.

Love that post from Torraca!

I really love your grey spinel. Does Julia B cut them herself? I started looking through your old posts, your e-ring is so dreamy. Love the blue-violet color. I wouldn't know what it was, but don't think I'd guess tanzanite... Definitely great to see what people with similar ideas or color preferences end up with. I'm still probably pretty early in this process--unless I lose patience and just chuck all my ideas and get something simple!

Also, you really should figure out if you want a sapphire or a diamond. If you really want a diamond, searching for sapphires and talking about sapphires is a waste of time.

Searching for and wearing a colored stone engagement ring isn't really the same as having a diamond instead. People typically don't take gemstones as being as valuable or as credible as a diamond, and will put you down. I don't know why this happens, but it does. Well, I do, and the reason is: DeBeers Marketing. But I digress. Searching and finding a gemstone for an engagement ring is tough too - you can't just order what you want the way you typically can with a diamond. Odds are good that you will not be able to replace it if something were to happen to it.

I think I'd address diamond vs. sapphire first.

I hope I can get the diamond vs sapphire thing figured out this weekend (though I'm not expecting to see the color sapphire or shape of diamond I would want, so it may take a while longer. I do need to decide because I have killed all my free time trying to research two rabbit holes! I am enjoying it though. And if I don't end up going the sapphire route, maybe a right-hand ring is in order down the line...

That DeBeers marketing is pretty powerful. But I'm surprised by how many friends of mine are ending up with rubies and emeralds etc, instead, so there's something in the air. I read a different thread, may have been PS or weddingbee maybe, about peoples' reactions/worst thing they say about non-diamond e-rings, and I'm sure I could deal if I truly loved the ring. But I guess one of my fears is that since I also want an unconventional setting (I go into that a little in my first post) the whole thing will end up being just too much for people to get it (I'm not quite as immune to peoples' opinions as my boyfriend is, though people know I'm a bit 'different' and expect me to choose things accordingly). I do sort of worry the whole ring could end up looking incongruous when I put together the things I want (EOC/OMC! dreamy light sapphire! rough-hewn bezel!) that don't really 'fit' together.

Thanks so much FrekeChild!

 

[FrekeChild]

Re: European Cut or Mine Cut Sapphires? Advice on bezel e-ri

My big gray OEC is from Julia B. I think she actually has a local lapidary that cuts for her.

I thought of Peter, because I know he recut a sapphire that was stunning for Wildfish Gems not that long ago. I will look to see if I can find a picture of it.

I advise you to go out and try on and see as much "stuff" as you can.

NYC has the Diamond District - which is unbelievable and really an experience. NSC is in NYC, as are some big name vendors, such as Leon Mege, and of course, there is Tiffany and Harry Winston and all of the high end jewelers.

LA has Singlestone (an antique and antique replica jeweler),

San Diego (an hour or so south of LA) has GemFix

San Francisco/the Bay Area has: Langs, Joe Escobar, and others.

Speaking of GemFix, these caught my eye for you (brighter, less "muddy", even color, less zoning, all well cut and nice color):
402
419
376
372
388
365
385
327
http://www.gemfix.com/sapphire_montana.html

I remember seeing an amazing green sapphire somewhere lately, but I'll have to go look for it....I remember saying to myself, "Wow!" but can't remember the specific color.

 

[FrekeChild]

Re: European Cut or Mine Cut Sapphires? Advice on bezel e-ri

If you decide you want a cushion cut gemstone, Jeff White has done this cut with beryl, and I'm sure he could cut it in a sapphire as well. There are other antique cushion gemstone cuts, but I know PSers love this one...

 

[FrekeChild]

Re: European Cut or Mine Cut Sapphires? Advice on bezel e-ri

I'm currently going by my eye color, so I hope they are close! These tend to increase in price...

Decently cut round, measures 7.8ishmm
http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompan...apphires/p-48583-round-unique-sapphire-u3364/

Decently cut round, measures 8.4ishmm
http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompan...apphires/p-48569-round-unique-sapphire-u3503/

Decently cut roval, has a little bit of a belly, but faces up well, 9x8
http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompan...sapphires/p-48570-oval-unique-sapphire-u3502/

Decently cut oval, 10x8
http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompan...sapphires/p-48548-oval-unique-sapphire-u3644/

Decently cut round, 9.2mm
http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompan...apphires/p-48589-round-unique-sapphire-u3292/

Decently cut cushion, fat belly, but it's really beautiful, 10.2x9.8, REALLY PRICEY
http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompan...phires/p-48567-cushion-unique-sapphire-u3507/

 

[Vraiment]

Re: European Cut or Mine Cut Sapphires? Advice on bezel e-ri

Yeah, I'm going to look at more on JuliaB's etsy. So glad you linked to that, I had never seen anything but diamonds in OEC. I imagine that spinels work better in general for the cut because they are a bit more shimmery, right? But I can imagine a sapphire being beautiful with it, just would have to be the right sapphire in the right hands.

Still looking through GemFix pictures...drool. Some real beauties. Love that 388 most so far, perfect size too I think, but it says sale pending. I do wish there were videos, that's the reason I've been using NSC to work on my sense of direction. Do you (or anyone else reading) have experience with NSC or Gemfix?

We have Tiffany's here, but that's about it for that sort of thing. Tivol carries some interesting things, I think they carry some Cartier. I am going to Meierotto's this weekend, they have a few top brands, and also Todd Reed who I love. I'm hoping someone has some unusual sapphires and OECs (I'm sure there are OECs in town, I may need to look into antique jewelry places here to find them). Funny you mentioned Leon Mege, I was just admiring his work today on Boston-Jeff's ring from a while back. So stunning. I actually sent a question today on Mege's website about whether he'd do a bezel setting. I'd love to see what he'd come up with. The bands on his e-rings are among the loveliest I've seen.

RE: The Jeff White, what a lovely cut and color!

 

[Vraiment]

Re: European Cut or Mine Cut Sapphires? Advice on bezel e-ri

I'm currently going by my eye color, so I hope they are close! These tend to increase in price...

Decently cut round, measures 7.8ishmm
http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompan...apphires/p-48583-round-unique-sapphire-u3364/

Decently cut round, measures 8.4ishmm
http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompan...apphires/p-48569-round-unique-sapphire-u3503/

Decently cut roval, has a little bit of a belly, but faces up well, 9x8
http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompan...sapphires/p-48570-oval-unique-sapphire-u3502/

Decently cut oval, 10x8
http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompan...sapphires/p-48548-oval-unique-sapphire-u3644/

Decently cut round, 9.2mm
http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompan...apphires/p-48589-round-unique-sapphire-u3292/

Decently cut cushion, fat belly, but it's really beautiful, 10.2x9.8, REALLY PRICEY
http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompan...phires/p-48567-cushion-unique-sapphire-u3507/

Those are all beautiful, but they read a bit too green/teal to me for what I think I'm looking for honestly. I don't know, I think I'm just going to have to see what I like in person... I'm not sure when I could get to NYC or San Diego (to Gemfix), but it is just so hard to judge sapphires online.

 

[Vraiment]

Re: European Cut or Mine Cut Sapphires? Advice on bezel e-ri

What do you think of the cuts on the ones I posted before from NSC? Thanks FrekeChild!!

 

[endless_summer]

Re: European Cut or Mine Cut Sapphires? Advice on bezel e-ri

If you decide you want a cushion cut gemstone, Jeff White has done this cut with beryl, and I'm sure he could cut it in a sapphire as well. There are other antique cushion gemstone cuts, but I know PSers love this one...

I'm completely late to the party but have to say that is a gorgeous cushion. Unfortunately, to my understanding, Gary doesn't take on commission work - though everything he has is beautiful, and his cushions are stunning as well. As others have said, you will have a much easier time once you make the diamond v sapphire decision and easier still, if sapphire, when you narrow in on the range of color that you want. The advice to compile pics of stones, both the color and, likely, separately the cut that you like is very good advice - it will definitely help you compare and be able to express to folks that may be working with you at a distance what you're after.

You could try looking for cut first, but if you have pics of the colors you like and know you'd be happy with, you can work with a lapidary, as others have suggested, and will likely have a much easier time - words for things like color, especially the nuances can get mushy, and two different people can use the same term to mean the same thing, so the ability to send pics (aside from helping you to learn what you're after) will come in handy. Same goes for cut Being able to show someone what you like may make you feel more comfortable going this route, if that's what you end up needing to do to find the stone you want.

Hope that helps & good luck!

 

[FrekeChild]

Re: European Cut or Mine Cut Sapphires? Advice on bezel e-ri

Natural Sapphire Company has a terrible reputation around here for the most part, for photoshopping images and awful customer service. Their stones are also typically overpriced and very badly cut. Having said all of that, there are a select few who rave about them. Most of the regulars wouldn't touch their stones with a ten foot pole.

These are some thoughts about the stones whose links you posted.

1. Greenish blue sapphire from NSC: Small window, has a strong gray component, I don't see a lot of green. Pretty deep with a pronounced belly - A cushion that weight should face up larger than this stone.

2. Greenish oval
Might exhibit a bow tie in person, might also show a small window
has something funky clarity-wise going on on one side of the stone
This stone is basically .75ct smaller, and will face up almost the same size as the first stone.
Also has a strong gray component, but not as strong as the first stone.

3. Blue oval
this stone has a taller crown than I'm used to seeing from NSC.
lesser gray, but still there, tiny hint of green.
I would not call this stone vivid in intensity
This stone's pavilion is cut kind of curvy - not quite full bellied, not really flat cut

4. Greenish cushion
Huge window, too shallow for this size of stone. The only sparkle will be around the edges, and it's too shallow to do anything about getting it recut.
I won't even discuss the rest of the stone's attributes because the cut is bad.

5. Oval blue spinel
gray-blue
Cut is ok, not stellar, but besides some non-symmetrical wonkiness, the cut isn't too bad, and doesn't exhibit a window or bowties.

6. Blue oval
Culet is off center and seems a little twisted
Color is gray-blue, maybe a tinge of green
Deep, so you're paying for some weight that you don't see, since it faces up smaller for it's size

7. blue-green-gray cushion
I wouldn't call this mint, first of all. I'd actually consider saying that gray is the primary color with green/blue being secondaries.
It is almost a cushiony oval.
Flatter crown.
stone is pretty shallow again, and looks to have a small window.

8. Blue sapphire
Violet secondary, looks to have some pretty significant zoning.
Medium window, shallow cut, keel, little bit of belly.
I don't like that brown thing going on in the middle of it.

9. Blue sapphire
uneven color, fair amount of gray,
Faces up small for it's size
windowed
Deep with a fat belly
This has the face up size of maybe a 3ct sapphire.

10. blue sapphire
Cut looks ok, but the coloration is kind of blotchy and uneven.
violet tones to the blue, fair amount of gray
Uneven outline kind of bugs me

11. gray blue cushion
Pretty gray
keel is off center, flat crown
Not precision cut, but not terrible either.
Cushion outline isn't symmetrical
Looks kind of hazy/blotchy, but I'm not sure what's causing that.

 

[chrono]

Re: European Cut or Mine Cut Sapphires? Advice on bezel e-ri

Natural Sapphire Company has a terrible reputation around here for the most part, for photoshopping images and awful customer service. Their stones are also typically overpriced and very badly cut. Having said all of that, there are a select few who rave about them. Most of the regulars wouldn't touch their stones with a ten foot pole.

+1. For the most part, the cuts on the NSC sapphires you showed range from somewhat lacking to sorely lacking.

 

[Vraiment]

Re: European Cut or Mine Cut Sapphires? Advice on bezel e-ri

Thanks for the analysis, FrekeChild (and Chrono for your agreeance!), it was really instructive. If only someone from NSC would read this and send these off to be improved! I see some of these things, like bowties and wavey outlines/asymmetry, but I don't have the trained eye to see all of them. And certainly don't have the ability to figure out if the stones could be recut and maintain the color. The pictures were just to express the colors I like, hence I started the thread about the desire to have a different cut/recut.

I was using NSC's color naming/descriptions, which are entirely bizarre and inconsistent, and I don't buy that the way they describe intensity has any meaning... just have to look at the stones as individuals. The color naming discrepancies kind of blew my mind as I was putting together the pictures of ones I liked.

I would say I like the 1st, 3rd, and 5th best for color (I'm barring the ones that look too tanzanite-like to me for now because I'm not sure I want to go that route), so I guess I like the grey tones that are undesirable, which is probably why I'm not seeing those greyed out shades anywhere besides Natural Sapphire Co? I also do like the zoning in some cases. It'll be interesting to see what I like if I get a chance to see a few sapphires tomorrow night and Saturday.

So am I correct that if (huge if, unlikely to find them in the size I'd be wanting) I could find these sorts of colors from someone else, they would likely cost a good deal less?