brown diamond vs topaz & its 2 sad ruby friends

[eastjavaman]

Wow!

I'd get it recut, just a little, to up the sparkle, and try to retain the weight and dimensions as much as possible.
The people over in Rocky Talk can give you the name of good cutters.

I thought normally we recommend Brian Gavin?

 

[Rosebloom]

I realize you may have moved on from any thought of setting this stone right now, but just for future reference, should you decide to make it a ring someday:

http://www.pinterest.com/pin/88453580154006467/
http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2010/important-jewels-n08667/lot.165.html
http://corainternational.com/?page=search&cat=rings&subcat=&coll=&gift=&q=&centeritem=28
http://www.1stdibs.com/jewelry/rings/engagement-rings/brown-old-european-cut-diamond-engagement-ring/id-j_121921/
http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2009/magnificent-jewels-n08540/lot.300.lotnum.html

 

[pregcurious]

It's alive and well:
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/re-cutter-recommendation-in-nyc-for-colored-diamond.193467/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/re-cutter-recommendation-in-nyc-for-colored-diamond.193467/[/URL]

 

[pregcurious]

You may be able to have one or both of the rubies recut and set into a men's wedding ring like this:

 

[Niel]

I realize you may have moved on from any thought of setting this stone right now, but just for future reference, should you decide to make it a ring someday:

http://www.pinterest.com/pin/88453580154006467/
http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2010/important-jewels-n08667/lot.165.html
http://corainternational.com/?page=search&cat=rings&subcat=&coll=&gift=&q=&centeritem=28
http://www.1stdibs.com/jewelry/rings/engagement-rings/brown-old-european-cut-diamond-engagement-ring/id-j_121921/
http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2009/magnificent-jewels-n08540/lot.300.lotnum.html

I am obsessed with both of thos sothebys ones!

 

[chatbandit]

i got the GIA report back. Appreciated that they called me even though it was the end of the day, but beyond that boy are they unfriendly compared with the lovely people at AGL. I've been at a big party since then and unable to share the news-- going nuts with it all in my purse, so it's nice to be able to do so now!

Update: the carat weight and clarity are the same. Small discrepancy in dimensions (very small). Confused that there is no cut rating with the GIA report. Brownie got 'even' for distribution. i'm sad to see 2 feathers and 2 crystals marked when neither shows to the eye. i'm confused that it managed a Fancy Vivid Orange Brown. I suppose that's less valuable than straight "fancy" but oh well. happy to see "natural" though.


random musings:
After discussing all of this with family i'm oddly more confused. My FF and his father (who's mother owned the stone) dont seem to care what we do with it. My FFIL was convinced that the original certificate stating it was a diamond was fake and when my FF relayed the journey I've been on just told us about how corrupt the jewelry business is in Tangiers and blah blah political thinking lol. My mother is convinced it's a really bad idea to recut it and has sent me dozens of emails and links to that effect. She wants me to take it to 2 jewelers she adores named -- one is Reinstein Ross (whom I do quite like but have explicitly shared, I don't share that vision for my e-ring-- they only work in yellow golds their hippyish sort of grecian style is not my vision for an e-ring). The second is Cathy Waterman, with whom I am less familiar, but my mother has a beautiful necklace of hers -- i think its this one. I've borrowed it and it makes me feel like a fairy or woodland nymph. She's made appointments for us to go this weekend to both of those so I guess I'll see about that. My sister is the only one kind of actually supporting me in doing whatever I prefer. My friends think I've become some sort of diamond-obsessed pirate given how much I've been talking about it. (i'm actually a bit hurt by how much they're dismissing it all)-- yes it's totally 'first world problems but come on, its still a big choice.

Meanwhile, I've been wanting something colorless-- perhaps I'm just running in the other direction? Very much fantasizing about big lemony and other dream rings I could get if we liquidated brownie even though I know that's the wrong move.

Tomorrow I'm going to another appraiser and then to get it insured. Not necessarily to check if the GIA report ups the price but mostly because the previous appraiser was odd. Final expense on this pirate journey, I promise!

 

[pregcurious]

Depending on the cost of insurance, you may want to put it in a safety deposit box. Jeweler's Mutual Insurance gives a steep discount for things in the safety deposit box; you have the option of taking it out X times/year, but you have to inform them in writing each time. Considering that you don't intend on wearing it for a while, but keeping it indefinitely, it might work for you.

 

[carmen1]

Update: the carat weight and clarity are the same. Small discrepancy in dimensions (very small). Confused that there is no cut rating with the GIA report. Brownie got 'even' for distribution. i'm sad to see 2 feathers and 2 crystals marked when neither shows to the eye. i'm confused that it managed a Fancy Vivid Orange Brown. I suppose that's less valuable than straight "fancy" but oh well. happy to see "natural" though.

Now I'm confused, i thought that "fancy vivid" would be much more valuable than straight "fancy". I believe "fancy vivid" is the highest grade of fancy colored diamond? Someone please correct me is I'm mistaken.

Anyhow, I think I've asked this before, but have you gone to see David at DBL who deals primarily in fancy colored diamonds (as opposed to your mom's jewelers who likely are now FCD experts?)

 

[chrono]

I am sorry that you had to spend more money on another lab report but am glad that you did because look at all that added information!

1. There is no cut rating on coloured diamonds, so that is normal. As mentioned time and again, when it comes to FCDs, colour is of the utmost importance, not cut. Cut's only function is to maximize colour.
2. Even distribution of colour is fabulous.
3. Good to know about the inclusions so you can use this to ID your FCD with a loupe.
4. Fancy vivid is a great rating. I like that it is neither dark nor light. Vivid is as good as it gets, just short of intense which is the highest rating.
5. Confirmation of orange brown is also very good news.

Here's the way one would read the colour rating:
Fancy is the tone.
Intense is the saturation. Intense is more valuable than light, less valuable than intense.
The scale sort of goes like this: Fancy Light -> Fancy -> Fancy Intense -> Fancy Vivid. I took Fancy Dark out of the list because it isn't applicable in this case.

 

[Circe]

Wow! Lucky, lucky you! In your shoes, I would be sending that baby off to Jonathon at Good Old Gold (and via him, if possible, to Yoram F., who posts here as Diagem, who never fails to get amazing results) to have it recut into an August Vintage Cushion. They've gotten great results with fancy browns before, and I think the proportions of your stone could lend themselves nicely to the cut. Set that baby in rose gold, and yum.

 

[pregcurious]

random musings:
My mother is convinced it's a really bad idea to recut it and has sent me dozens of emails and links to that effect. She wants me to take it to 2 jewelers she adores named -- one is Reinstein Ross (whom I do quite like but have explicitly shared, I don't share that vision for my e-ring-- they only work in yellow golds their hippyish sort of grecian style is not my vision for an e-ring). The second is Cathy Waterman, with whom I am less familiar, but my mother has a beautiful necklace of hers -- i think its this one. I've borrowed it and it makes me feel like a fairy or woodland nymph. She's made appointments for us to go this weekend to both of those so I guess I'll see about that. My sister is the only one kind of actually supporting me in doing whatever I prefer. My friends think I've become some sort of diamond-obsessed pirate given how much I've been talking about it. (i'm actually a bit hurt by how much they're dismissing it all)-- yes it's totally 'first world problems but come on, its still a big choice.

It sounds like your mom is focusing on the style of the setting as Reinstein Ross and Cathy Waterman both have distinct looks. Perhaps she is not seeing that what makes this adventure interesting is the stone. You've come to the right place because at CS, we're focused on the stone and it's color. In general, CSers will choose settings that most flatter the stone, but that is up to you.

It's your ering. I had pressure to accept my ering as it was, and 15 years later, I am getting it reset for the 2nd time. For the first reset, I was still trying to work within parameters made by someone else (my DH). $2000+ dollars later, I'm trying to do what makes me happy. He gets it now. I asked him simply, when I buy you and article of clothing as a present, and you don't like it, I return it with no fuss. Yet, when it comes to something I wear every single day, that is a symbol of our union, it comes with a guilt trip that I have to like it because you chose it. That doesn't make sense.

It is reasonable to want to like something you wear every single day. Your ering is not an occasional wear, and maybe you would like to keep it between you and your husband. It's not a bad idea to draw the boundary lines for parents/in-laws early.

 

[carmen1]

So still a little confused, I checked around and wanted to come back to confirm that "Fancy Vivid" is in fact a higher grade than "Fancy Intense", and 2 grades higher than "Fancy" so I think that was a great outcome from the GIA report! You should not be disappointed about that at all!

Here are some good resources on colored diamonds, if you haven't already found them:

http://www.fancydiamonds.net/diamond_education/4cs/color/defining_the_intensity_of_the_diamond.htm

https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/fancy-color-diamonds/brown-diamonds

 

[chrono]

I am sorry that you had to spend more money on another lab report but am glad that you did because look at all that added information!

1. There is no cut rating on coloured diamonds, so that is normal. As mentioned time and again, when it comes to FCDs, colour is of the utmost importance, not cut. Cut's only function is to maximize colour.
2. Even distribution of colour is fabulous.
3. Good to know about the inclusions so you can use this to ID your FCD with a loupe.
4. Fancy vivid is a great rating. I like that it is neither dark nor light. Vivid is as good as it gets, which is the highest rating.
5. Confirmation of orange brown is also very good news.

Here's the way one would read the colour rating:
Fancy is the tone.
Vivid is the saturation. It works upwards from light -> intense -> vivid
The scale sort of goes like this: Fancy Light -> Fancy -> Fancy Intense -> Fancy Vivid. I took Fancy Dark out of the list because it isn't applicable in this case.

Urgh....my post is just full of errors. I've corrected it in bold. Pardon all the misinformation. Note that if you cut it, depending on how much material is lost and how it is cut, the colour grading could drop from vivid to intense. The tone could also be affected.

 

[periwinklegirl]

random musings:
...
My friends think I've become some sort of diamond-obsessed pirate given how much I've been talking about it. (i'm actually a bit hurt by how much they're dismissing it all)-- yes it's totally 'first world problems but come on, its still a big choice.

Meanwhile, I've been wanting something colorless-- perhaps I'm just running in the other direction? Very much fantasizing about big lemony and other dream rings I could get if we liquidated brownie even though I know that's that's the wrong move.

I suspect many of us on PS have encountered this attitude out in the real world.
We PSers are here for you through as many thinking out loud posts as you need to write while you decide what to do.
We know know what it's like, we've been there (maybe not with a six carat diamond though), and we want to support you.

Fancy vivid! Congrats!

I was interested to see Karl's post. And I think it looks quite sparkly in the pics you took after it was cleaned.

Good luck with deciding what to do with it!

 

[VapidLapid]

First I would like to congratulate you. You are very lucky to have such a pebble drop in your lap. The GIA report is really just about the best info one could pray for.
My previous post was not intended to say you should sell it. I meant only to let you know that is a real and viable option. I had the impression that many people are telling you what you cannot do and what you have to do.
Also I think it might be helpful to separate the brown diamond and what to do with it from your e-ring. They do not of necessity have anything to do with each other.
You may do what you feel best with; what makes you happy.

Now the unsolicited if it were me...
I would do a recut. Because the color distribution came back as Even, I would be much less concerned about a recut affecting tone in a detrimental way. In fact, a recut that eliminates a window and creates longer light paths within the stone may increase saturation. Of course you should discuss this with the lapidary beforehand. Only an expert with stone in hand can say what is most likely to be the results. Then with the stone recut I would re-evaluate my options. Perhaps the recut stone would make a fantastic e-ring for you. If not then do not fret about it. You can do something else with it, maybe make it into a pendant necklace, put it away in a bank vault for a generation, or sell it to have funds for the e-ring that you want

 

[periwinklegirl]

VapidLapid, did you see Karl's post in the other thread? Recutting may not be such a good option.


by Karl_K » 19 Sep 2013 07:43
looking at the pic my opinion is that an expert cutter already worked on that diamond.
He/She took rough that was a very dark brown and cut a stone with nice color out of it.
Getting that material to sparkly like lighter material is not going to be possible.

A radiant cut from that material would be near black in color.

 

[VapidLapid]

no i did not see karl's post. I didn't know there is another thread

 

[periwinklegirl]

There, I've put it in.

And here he talks about the window:

Karl, theoretically is it possible to eliminate the window in the stone without making it appear darker?

Not realistically, ie not without making it very much smaller.(smaller diamond, less material, lighter color)
It is also not a full window its right on the edge which was done intentionally.
It was also done by eye for each set of pavilion facets it is not easy to do at all.

 

[VapidLapid]

Thanks periwinkle. I hunted through the posts trying to find it, or a link to another topic. Well it sounds like Karl is saying the sont is effectively already recut to it's potential. I might be inclined to put the stone in his hand for a final evaluation rather than going just on these photos, but he does seem quite certain already.

 

[pregcurious]

Yes, it sounds like the window was done on purpose to lighten the color. There's a pyrope garnet with a huge window that someone once posted, which was cut in this manner to make it look like it had a vivid red color, versus the usual brown/red.

 

[VapidLapid]

ugh, I was scrolling too fast. I just found the link to the thread with Karl's posts. It was right in front of me the whole time.

I have to say, the idea of a recut was not the important point of my posts. The idea that the brown diamond and the OP's e-ring are separate issues, and that the OP can do what will result in the e-ring that she actually wants, that makes her happy was my point.

 

[chatbandit]

Karl's advice explains a lot re: windowing. I was very pleased by today's appraisal and was surprised that the value went up with the GIA report -- possibly could be that the previous appraiser was not so tuned in?

The appraiser took a real interest in the stone and told me that the cut was really not bad at all (disagreeing with the AGL 'poor') and instead confirmed what Karl said. He recommended GoG and Yoram as well for a consult (i love how PS recs continue to be corroborated! but said honestly, that a recut could totally darken and compromise the value and color that is now prominent. It has something to do with the edges even though the distribution is 'even' it's dark enough that we can lose light and sparkle? Also learned that yes, the vivid color is better than 'dark' or just 'fancy' -- quite pleased about that. (sorry for my ignorance here, and thanks to everyone for the clarifications). Also he drew a little table for me showing the drop of value that would come from losing depth and size and it was startling.

I have to say, the idea of a recut was not the important point of my posts. The idea that the brown diamond and the OP's e-ring are separate issues, and that the OP can do what will result in the e-ring that she actually wants, that makes her happy was my point.

apologies for conflating the e-ring and brown diamond issues (and threads). It's just been what's on my mind! Everyone's been so helpful so I have shared my concerns openly. As of now, they are separate issues! Brownie will be sleeping cozily in a safety deposit box soon.

Re: my mother and other people's comments, I so appreciate having understanding PS-ers on hand. I'm going to just go with my mom to give her the 'experience' i think she wants me to have and entertain her style ideas. Now that I'm thinking more along the lines of pendant or RHR, I can be more open!

 

[chrono]

I think it is a combination of both having the GIA report and an appraiser who knows FCDs. Another huge reason why so many PSers suggested GIA over AGL for coloured diamonds. Personally, I would not recut because I am sure it will affect not only the colour but the value, as you've been informed by the appraiser. A recut into some other shape or design will affect the value greatly in a negative fashion too!

I think what might make everyone (you and your family) happiest is a separate e-ring stone and let this one be a RHR. Sounds like you are going this route too.

 

[Niel]

In some respects its a shame you didnt just stumble on this by accident. As I can tell you are you eyes on that 5ct yellow pear.... and I'm sure your mind is racing with all the things that money could buy. I admire your ability to hold off. I know I wouldn't be so strong. Smart woman.

 

[pregcurious]

Karl's advice explains a lot re: windowing. I was very pleased by today's appraisal and was surprised that the value went up with the GIA report -- possibly could be that the previous appraiser was not so tuned in?

The price for the appraisal is subjective. In addition, the real prices are what someone will pay for it secondhand (wholesale), what it will cost to replace (you versus insurance), and what it would cost in a brick and mortar store (the highest amount of these). I hope that the value is more accurate with a GIA report. When you pick your insurance, you may want to decide based on if they replace the stone, or give you the value of the stone as appraised.

 

[AN0NYM0US]

Congrats on getting the GIA report!

Would you mind posting a scan of the report? I was under the impression Brown diamonds couldn't receive a vivid grade.

 

[kenny]

This is what I posted in the RT thread.
I'm posting it here because some of my points differ from what others have posted here.

I'd also love to see the GIA report.
Could you please post the exact carat weight and the GIA report number?
Then we can look up a full-sized PDF image, since PS software usually makes full sized reports, that people post here, blurry and unreadable.

Actually, you may not want a cutter who is an expert cutting fancy colored diamonds.

Yes, cutters of colored diamonds have valuable skills.
They know how to optimize the color saturation of a diamond, which increases the value of colored diamonds.
The closer to GIA's grade of Fancy Vivid a fancy colored diamond can be cut the more it will be worth.

That's great for diamond wholesalers and retailers who want to make as much money as possible on each colored diamond, but for a customer who inherits a colored diamond and considering a re-cut it may not be the way to go.
Here's why.
The best light performance probably calls for a cutting recipe that is different from the recipe that makes the color stronger.

Now that you own it if you intend to keep it and wear it you may want better light performance more than the highest color grade and value and a higher insurance premium.
I certainly would.
Yes a higher GIA color grade will make your diamond more valuable in the FCD world in which light performance takes a back seat or is just thrown out the window, but IMO value matters only if you're going to sell it.
If I intended to wear it I'd definitely get it recut for the best light performance possible and just let the color grade fall where it falls.

ETA: IOW, even though the FCD world/market is all about cutting to get a color grade as close as possible to Vivid you are free to recut for light performance and the hell with the color grade.
Yes, you'd be lowering the value, but if it's for you to wear you may not care, and prefer to optimize the light performance.

I'd recommend contacting directly the cutter in Israel named Yoram F.
He posts here on Pricescope under the name, DiaGem.

I know he is competent cutting for light performance becaus he cuts the precision ultra-superb light performance August Vintage like and the Octavias for Good Old Gold.
Here is Yoram's info:
Website: www.diagem.net
Email [email protected]

You can arrange secure shipping to Israel and back via www.malcaamit.com
They specialize in shipping jewels, fine art, and gold bullion around the world.

If Yoram tells you he needs a recipe to cut to I'd contact our expert step cut designer KarlK.
He is the genius who designed the amazing Octavia Asscher. [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/pop-the-cork-i-just-bought-the-first-ocatvia.132337/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/pop-the-cork-i-just-bought-the-first-ocatvia.132337/[/URL]

Karl's info:
Website: http://www.stormsplace.com
Email: [email protected]

 

[Karl_K]

It has something to do with the edges even though the distribution is 'even' it's dark enough that we can lose light and sparkle

If you don't mind me using your stone as a learning stone I can explain that comment.
However you have to promise not to be insulted or hurt.

 

[Karl_K]

Kenny,
I love high light return diamonds also but a lot of times the sign of an expert cutter with a FCD is that it gets the color grade. This is one case of many.
I would say that FCD's with high light return are a very very small exception because the starting material color has to be perfect.

 

[movie zombie]

good info, karl. given you are the father of "Octavia" I do hope others respect your opinion on this. imo, there is no way on earth that this stone should be recut. I hope the stone goes into a safe place and doesn't see the light of day until Chat has gotten the e-ring of her dreams. seriously.