Blue sapphire and beryllium controversy

[mogok]

Dear all,
Here is a message to inform you that we have finally put on line our study about the new evolution in blue sapphire treatment that have put Thailand into turmoil one month ago after the announcement that some new treatment with beryllium had appear.

As the "Pandora Box" was open, we feel that we have to share with the public the results of our investigations and thoughts even if currently the situation remains unclear.

Currently the AIGS Gemological Laboratory believes that, in the absence of verified data regarding this issue, we should be careful about stating that blue sapphires are "beryllium treated".

We have a here obviously a "High temperature/Long Period of time" heat treatment as the treatment is more than 3 weeks long, which is quite new in Thailand. Thus the internal scene in these stones is quite unusual, whith highly alterated inclusions. We are currently on the process to check carefully about the beryllium presence as a cooperation with GIA research team that have developped for LA-ICPMS some new corundum standards that will probably help to clarify this issue.

Note: Only few stones from this treatment have reach yet the market as the Thai traders have taken the case very seriously following the initial announcement by a gemological laboratory one month ago. It is not clear yet if these stone will be found commonly in the next few months, so we believe that the matter should be handled carefully and in a collabotation spirit the for best interest of the sapphire trade.

We invite you to read this study which is available on AIGS laboratory website from page:

AIGS Lab website

The study is a 4 web pages work with many inclusion photographs. Quite beautiful inlcusions I've to say... "Something from the deep blue or the outer space" I would say....
But no it is blue sapphire!

All the best,

 

[movie zombie]

welcome back, vincent! long time no post here! in fact, in a couple of other threads today i used your name and paraphrased a comment you made some time back re color stones and inclusions.

movie zombie

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Vincent, I appreciate your and AIG''s effort to bring the facts to the industry in an expedient and balanced manner.

I am very impressed with your lab''s work and the fact that you are on the frontlines of detecting and analyzing current gemological trends in the industry. I think that AIGS is taking it''s place among the premier labs of the world.

I particularly enjoy your willingness to share your research with the gemological community instead of holding it "close to the vest" in a proprietary manner.

You are to be commended. Thanks for the article. It is excellent.

 

[bar01]

Thanks for the information. Great stuff.

I wonder if the average sapphire consumer is concerned with treatment at all - let alone what kind of treatments. There seem to be a few basic ideologies that I have seen:

1) The "I want no treatment at all" group

2) The "some heating has been around forever - and is okay" group

3) The “No diffusion, pixie dust, or other magic treatments” group

4) The "I just want a nice looking sapphire and don't care about anything else” group.


It seems to me that in most cases, jewelers simply state that consumers are to assume that the sapphire has been treated as "common practice". Do they ever specifically have to tell the consumer what type of treatments? Not sure, it gets complicated then. I feel that that most consumers will simply choose position number 1 or 4, unless sellers are required to provide detailed explanations on treatments and educate them.

 

[movie zombie]

i''ve seen some vendors actually list BE treated or heat treated......but i''ve seen some vendors who say no treatment and i know darn well that the price isn''t high enough for it not to be treated in some way. what is a consumer to do?!

movie zombie

 

[mogok]

Date: 2/28/2006 10:30:51 PM
Author: Bertrand

I wonder if the average sapphire consumer is concerned with treatment at all - let alone what kind of treatments. There seem to be a few basic ideologies that I have seen:


1) The ''I want no treatment at all'' group


2) The ''some heating has been around forever - and is okay'' group


3) The “No diffusion, pixie dust, or other magic treatments” group


4) The ''I just want a nice looking sapphire and don''t care about anything else” group.



It seems to me that in most cases, jewelers simply state that consumers are to assume that the sapphire has been treated as ''common practice''. Do they ever specifically have to tell the consumer what type of treatments? Not sure, it gets complicated then. I feel that that most consumers will simply choose position number 1 or 4, unless sellers are required to provide detailed explanations on treatments and educate them.

Positions number 1, 2, 3 or 4 are very fine. Treatments are fine as are doublets, synthetics or whatever... as long as the buyer know what he is buying!
This is the key point. Proper disclosure at all level of the trade should be the rule.

Its not easy, but this is the way to get confidence, public recognition, desire and finally value.

All the best,

 

[valeria101]

Date: 3/1/2006 8:05:19 AM
Author: Vincent Pardieu

Treatments are fine as are doublets, synthetics or whatever... as long as the buyer know what he is buying!
This is the key point.

I wonder if disclosure for gem treatments is not akin to... asking a nice lady to only show ''before'' pictures after successful plastic surgery. No just ''not easy'' - downright out of question.

 

[mogok]

Hi Ana,

Well may be but if the lady wants to have a happy life...
I guess it is better for her not to hide the truth to her future husband.
Trust is really given once...
May be not easy to say, but if not said and discovered... Things can turn bad!

As we were teached in French Army:
No seen, not taken... Taken: Dead!

When you feel cheated, you think again before to buy a new gem or to give your trust again. And when you give it again, if you do it... There will be for ever then this little doubt that changes everything!

Full disclosure, should be the rule... Think about it.

 

[daniil]

Hi all, I agree with Vincent. Disclosure is very important, especially when it comes to introducing a new element into a stone. as far as i understand there is a big difference in price between heated blue sapphire and titanium lattice diffusion sapphire. even though beryllium treatment should be deeper than titanium it is still a foreign element and such treatment should be disclosed. of course right now majority of people who buy jewelry are likely unaware of all these different treatments but with time it probably be more common knowledge. I think it can back fire in the future if gem dealers will try to hide treatments. after all if there is no trust why a customer would pay 2000-3000/ct for a nice blue sapphire if he/she cannot be sure that it is not just a colorless sapphire that was "infused" with blue? I agree that there is nothing wrong with all these treatments including beryllium but it should be left up to the buyer to decide if he/she wants to buy a stone with particular treatment.

just my personal opinion.

Thanks, Daniil.

 

[Richard M.]

Date: 3/5/2006 11:47:51 AM
Author: Vincent Pardieu
Full disclosure, should be the rule... Think about it.

A noble thought, Vincent. Of course it should. Now let''s get practical. (Me being the Grinch again).

Disclosure at what level of the market? I''ve been ordering a few stones direct from your home base in Bangkok lately as research for an article I''m writing. Not one supplier has mentioned treatment of any kind except for spinel and garnet which are touted as "Not heated." Well yippee-skip! Of course they''re not -- they never are, at least so far! That''s pretty cynical, wouldn''t you say? So how is the reseller in the U.S. or elsewhere to know what''s really been done to his merchandise? Especially when he buys stones already cut from a middle-man who can''t disclose treatments he himself doesn''t know about?

I buy rough stones for cutting from places like Afghanistan, Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Nigeria, South Africa, Namibia, Mozambique, Zambia, Pakistan, India, China, Australia and more. None of them come with labels or invoices saying "heated," "irradiated," "glass-filled," "dyed," "epoxy-filled," "synthetic," etc. even though I know many have been treated and parcels have been ''salted'' right in the country of origin. Some of my suppliers have whispered the truth in my ear and I''ve sent rough to the GIA to be certain. I do a blanket disclosure of any stones I have the slightest reason to suspect. That''s why I specialize mainly in garnet and spinel I know for certain are not ''test-tube babies.'' But the international rough market is strictly ''buyer beware.''

If you''re going to preach the gospel of Disclosure, maybe it''s better to start right in Bangkok where most of the treating is done and your friend/mentor Ted Themelis teaches weekly seminars on how to ''cook'' corundum. Students from supplier-countries all over the world attend. Nothing against Ted but the real problem as I see it involves disclosure on the supplier end. I''ve never bought a parcel of rough described as treated. It just doesn''t happen unless its blue topaz or another treatment everyone already knows about.

Another point involves secondary sales. Say a jeweler knows his stones are probably treated or synthetic and notes it on the invoice after informing the customer. What''s the procedure if the stone is later sold? What happens if someone inherits a treated stone?

I have a gemologist friend/client who sets up at gem shows around the U.S. doing stone I.D.s free for attendees. On several occasions I''ve watched an endless parade of ladies bringing "Grandma''s alexandrite" and "Aunt Ethel''s ruby" in, all breathlessly described as "very old and valuable." Every one I''ve seen so far has been synthetic flame-fusion corundum. I hate to think of what the future will bring with the many new treatments, enhancements and synthetics now on the market. It''s far past time for the industry worldwide to deal decisively with this problem.


Richard M.

 

[mogok]

Date: 3/5/2006 3:02:35 PM
Author: Richard M.

A noble thought, Vincent. Of course it should. Now let''s get practical. (Me being the Grinch again).

If you''re going to preach the gospel of Disclosure, maybe it''s better to start right in Bangkok where most of the treating is done and your friend/mentor Ted Themelis teaches weekly seminars on how to ''cook'' corundum. Students from supplier-countries all over the world attend. Nothing against Ted but the real problem as I see it involves disclosure on the supplier end. I''ve never bought a parcel of rough described as treated. It just doesn''t happen unless its blue topaz or another treatment everyone already knows about.

Another point involves secondary sales. Say a jeweler knows his stones are probably treated or synthetic and notes it on the invoice after informing the customer. What''s the procedure if the stone is later sold? What happens if someone inherits a treated stone?

I have a gemologist friend/client who sets up at gem shows around the U.S. doing stone I.D.s free for attendees. On several occasions I''ve watched an endless parade of ladies bringing ''Grandma''s alexandrite'' and ''Aunt Ethel''s ruby'' in, all breathlessly described as ''very old and valuable.'' Every one I''ve seen so far has been synthetic flame-fusion corundum. I hate to think of what the future will bring with the many new treatments, enhancements and synthetics now on the market. It''s far past time for the industry worldwide to deal decisively with this problem.

Richard M.

Hi Richard,

In Bangkok several reliable labs offer good identification reports starting for $15. This can help both the US buyer willing to know what he is buying... gemological report might also help for secondary sales:
If I inherit a car, I think that I will send it for some control, so I know what are the problems.
If I inherit a stone and I dont know what it is really, the idea to send it to a gem lab does not seems that useful, does it?
If your supplier does not disclose, you can ask yourself some questions... But instead to keep these questions for you, you can ask him, and if "he dont know", then ask him to provide you the stone with a report from a Gem lab of your choice telling that the stone is what you need the stone to be.

Disclosure is also in the hand of the buyer...

People buying $2000 gemstone without a report when 300 meters from their good supplier a gem lab provide reports for $15 are a little bit "funny" to me. Then they complain about Bangkok... Very funny to me!

All the best,

 

[colorchange]

Hi Vincent,

You are completely right that there are two very good labs that are cheap in Bangkok, plus a lot of small labs that are not all bad.
I will never understand that someone who isn''t a gemmologist himself (and even if he is, his knowledge may not be very "fresh") do not bring gems values $500 or more to a lab...

My only problem with full disclosure is typicaly :
I buy a ruby as "heated, Ceylon" and it comes out of AIGS as "no evidence of heat enhancement, probable origin Madagascar" what should I do ? I sometimes bring sapphires or rubies believed to be heated to labs that do not see any indication of heating so... low uneffective heating ? Not heated and lost datas because there are so many middlemen ? Or enhancement that is not already detectable but may be one day and should be disclosed ???

Regards

 

[mogok]

Hi Color change,

Excellent question indeed... I see your point
Is this AIGS report a true case or just an example as you said "typicaly"?

Nevertheless I will try to bring you some elements:
You know most labs practice gemology with their eyes and not their ears...
At AIGS the company culture is to write on our report our opinion and if we are not 100% sure, then the report should reflect this possibility. Our comments have to be understood litteraly:

Basically we say:

"Unheated": In very rare cases when we have found in the stones some evidence telling us that the stone was not heated even at "low temperatures" (I say "low temperatures" as this term is not clearly defined in gemology).

"No indication of heat treatment": When we dont have seen in the stone anything that indicate that heat treatment could be a possibility but well things are nevertheless possible. As an exemple a pink sapphire from Ilakaka in madagascar which only inclusions are zircon crystals, (no rutile needle, or any other "tale tell" inclusions are present) these inclusions does not present any modification until possibly 1400 degres. Then if we see that all the zircons are fine we can deduce that there are no indications of heat treatment but it is still possible that some heat treatment at 1000 degres was applied...

"No clear evidence was observed that the stone was or was not heated." When the stone does not present any evidence leading us to a conlcusion that the stone was or was not heated. An an example a small microscope clean sapphire or ruby will enter in this case. Or a stone presenting some indications that some low temperature might have happen as in the case of a thai ruby (which present some inclusion alterated by natural heat) and which present also some signs that may be it was also heated at "low temperature" by men. Sometimes it is not easy to make a decision and we prefer in this case not to give a clear answer.

"This stone was heat processed" when it is clear that the stone was heated.

Then we have some other specific comments. But usually our comments can vary from a stone to another as they are comments and each stone can be different from another. So you have already understood that the comment "No evidence" you are speaking about can apply to low temperature heat treatment like Sri Lankan traditional blow pipe as this "low temperature" treatment is not all the time easy to detect in all the stones.

Regarding now origin determination: We compare the given stones with our data. Regarding Sri Lanka, I would just like to invite you to read our field trip report for Sri Lanka and Madagascar. Many stones sold in Sri Lanka are from Madagascar origin, there they are often sold as Sri Lankan... I would not be really surprised that many "Sri Lankan heated" rubies and sapphires can be in fact from Madagascar and get a lab report telling that the stone is: probable origin Madagascar with the "No clear evidence was observed that the stone was or was not heated" comment.

Besides as madagascar and Sri lanka geology are very close the stone might be from Sri Lanka even if it is said to be probably from Madagascar as these 2 geographic origin produce stones that are very similar.

Origin determination based on geographic origin is sometimes very far from an exact science, especially when the stones are heated as some inlcusion might have been altered and I would prefer a system with a geologic origin... But the trade thinks differently.

Nevertheless as many other labs we give our opinion on the gem origin but in fact besides the miner who took the stone out of the ground and god, nobody really knows where the stone is from as Richard Hughes used to say... And the problem we face is that it is difficult to trust the miner, and god does not speaks that much, especially to gemologists!

All the best,

 

[colorchange]

Thanks a lot Vincent,

Indeed, I''m a very regular user of AIGS but had never seen "No clear evidence was observed that the stone was or was not heated" or "Unheated". You must not use these very regularly.

My main problem is : What do I tell to my customer ???????

I must admit that this 1.6 Ct ruby was 20 x loupe clean which doesn''t make your task very easy... not so many inclusions to study. It was "No indication of heat treatment".
Unfortunately, though this ruby has a very fine color, it is too clean to be a very good one. About the origin, I don''t really care, I don''t see a difference in price between Madagascar and Ceylon currently, it was just for romance

. Indeed my first sight opinion when buying it (in Bangkok) was that it looked like a fine Thaï ruby so I just guessed...

This also recently happened to me with an also very very clear orange sapphire aledgely from Sri Lanka. (AIGS did not have an opinion on origin)

Best regards,

Henri

 

[mogok]

Hi Henry,
There is a clear difference between Thai and most Madagascar rubies on one side and rubies from Sri Lanka on the other side. Madagascar stones as Thai stones are from the basaltic type, meaning rich in iron with low fluorescence. On the other side, Sri lankan stones are closer to the Vietnamese or Afghan material with some bluish areas and a metamorphic type meaning low in iron.
A clear difference can be made between Thai and Madagascar rubies as rutile needles are not seen in Thai rubies but are common in Vatomandry (Madagascar) rubies. If you check your stone carefully with a fiber optic unit you might possibly see these inclusions especially if we have given "Probable origin: Madagascar" for this ruby.
Usually we try to be carefull for origin determination and give an opinion only when the possibilities are reduced to a quite narrow range of acceptable possibilities. We never guarantee that we will give an origin opinion. Sometimes our gemologist look at the stones, its inclusions, spectra, and finally we look at each other, scratch our head and say: What about: Probable origin: Planet earth?
Funny? Well... not really but sometimes, it is clear that it is difficult to conclude and in this case we just dont issue any "probable origin report".

But you know one thing is obvious regarding origin determination: As it takes time for gemologists to study correctly a mining area, much more time that the dealers needs nowadays to bring their stones to the market. Gemological lab are and will do mistakes as they compare the stones they are given for examination to their data bank. And usually when a new gemstone deposit is found, people are not coming first to see the labs... We try to keep ourselves up to date, but even in Bangkok it is a challenge.

Regarding to your customers, i understand your problem... My advise is just to tell them the truth. If they dont understand, may be try to educate them a little bit... I know easy to say, but difficult to put in practice. We face also the same type of problems when our customers are not happy with the results they get. We try to explain, but sometimes it is not easy...

All the best,

 

[colorchange]

Thanks Vincent,

I must say I'm not a very fine gemmologist... I thought of Thaïland based on color and clarity only, as I really didn't see anything (I mean very hardly anything) but it was just with sunlight and a folding loupe...
Quite sad this ruby is not a bit more silky it would have been a real killer...

About explaining to my customers, that's just what I try to do "I brought it to a very very good lab and they didn't see anything but it doesn't proove there is no treatment, just that it's worth as much as if there were none etc etc etc and it went through so many hand from mining to you, you know, I'm not god etc. About quality, it's fine but not excellent, too pure, will never compete with fine Mogok"

But it's quite harder to tell than the "It's pure earth creation, it was just cut and polished and brought to you, I bought it as rough still in Matrix deep in the Madagascar jungle (I add a few fake stories about msokitos and snakes), it's 100% guaranteed no treatment a rarer earth production, and completely pure, imagine how rare it is even Burma rubies are always more included, Madagascar is definitely better and will be worth much more in just a few years"
I see such so often.......... very sad.

Of course I'm honnest, I tend toward the first, but it will just depend on how intelligent my customer is, I'll try to explain him with more or less details the probability that there be a treatment and the value of untreated vs low heat etc etc.
Exact same with clarity : I price my gems well, but would I have to offer this one to a private customer should I explain that purity is a flaw ???? I would do but it's just a big question for me because my customer will be more satisfied at the same price to know that it's extremely pure without knowing it's not so good indeed. It's always so easier to deal with professionals : you know that another on e will do the "dirty" job.
Romance is so important (that's why I'm always looking for origin), I don't want to make everything flat and earthy.

Regards

 

[colorchange]

I forgot to mention... this ruby is a true case, went in AIGS just a few monthes ago.

 

[mogok]

Hi Henry,
Yep, I understand your point... Great explaination.
But well, I think that you can romance a stone without making stories.
I used to do that while I was tour guide: Romancing is same as convincing: You cannot succede with your arguments, you have to use the one from the person you are willing to convince. Not easy but listening to the way they speaks, move or studying their body language, you can find ways... Of course its more easy on regular customers.
Anyway we are getting far from the initial topic...

To come back to your stone: possible, but already far to give you anything precise without checking my worksheets! I also like origin as a romancing factor. I like when I buy a stone to know where does it come from, and I like even more to find inside some evidences of that... Then the stone look more precious to me...
A clean stone is as a mute wife, not too much conversation (Please I dont mean any disrespect to mute people here...) But its a question of personal feeling.

Anyway if any problem, you know probably how to contact us.

All the best,

 

[colorchange]

Yes I got very far from initial point.

Let''s say a wife with an inexpressive face

. A gem without origin and inclusion is about like a new antique, uninterresting.
But most final customers don''t care about inclusions, just romance that come along with the gem.

Best regards,

Please keep on informing us Vincent, your inputs are so precious !

 

[mogok]

Date: 3/7/2006 5:57:41 AM
Author: colorchange
A gem without origin and inclusion is about like a new antique, uninterresting.

But most final customers don''t care about inclusions, just romance that come along with the gem.

Interestingly said... I like it very much, and with your permission I might use it.

Thanks for it,

All the best,

 

[colorchange]

Of course you might !

Regards,

Henri