best way to represent irish green

Here is the Moh's scale of hardness for minerals:
1 Talc
2 Gypsum
3 Calcite
4 Fluorite
5 Apatite
6 Orthoclase
7 Quartz
8 Topaz
9 Corundum
10 Diamond

You can find hardness for other stones here:
http://www.gemselect.com/gem-info/gem-hardness-info.php

For everyday wear, I would stick to ~7+, but it depends on how protected the stone will be, and how you treat your rings. Some people would only be comfortable with 9+. You mention it will be hidden, but because you seem concerned about durability, I think 7+ is reasonable and offers stones that come in an Irish green. For greens, that means diamonds, sapphires/corundum, beryl (emerald), chrome tourmaline (very nice Irish greens), tourmaline, dematoid garnet, and tsavorite garnet (7-7.5). For Irish green, it will be easiest that find it in emerald, chrome tourmaline/tourmaline, dematoid/tsavorite garnet. I would personally pick tsavorite garnet for the green/sparkle/price, but emerald has a glow that is really unlike the other stones. Tsavorite garnets also tend to have more yellowish green, while emeralds have a bluish green.

Your platinumsmith should be able to work with any of these. There are other green stones that are softer, but I cannot recommend them for everyday wear. It comes down to personal preference.

First off I have to say that this is brilliant - will the DF have a secret stone as well recognizing the Irish heritage?

While I'm a sapphire lover, my vote would not be for sapphire, because it will be difficult to find in an intense pure green. I think of irish green as the color of the lush hills and pastures after a rain, so I think of Pandora's tsavorite or an emerald. I see olive-ish green demantoids but not often do I see pure green demantoids, and if I do, they're typically russian and expensive. So I say chrome tourmaline, tsavorite or emerald.

I can't wait to see how you do this!

Written by pregcurious » October 4th, 2011, 8:02 pm:Here is the Moh's scale of hardness for minerals:
1 Talc
2 Gypsum
3 Calcite
4 Fluorite
5 Apatite
6 Orthoclase
7 Quartz
8 Topaz
9 Corundum
10 Diamond

You can find hardness for other stones here:
http://www.gemselect.com/gem-info/gem-hardness-info.php

For everyday wear, I would stick to ~7+, but it depends on how protected the stone will be, and how you treat your rings. Some people would only be comfortable with 9+. You mention it will be hidden, but because you seem concerned about durability, I think 7+ is reasonable and offers stones that come in an Irish green. For greens, that means diamonds, sapphires/corundum, beryl (emerald), chrome tourmaline (very nice Irish greens), tourmaline, dematoid garnet, and tsavorite garnet (7-7.5). For Irish green, it will be easiest that find it in emerald, chrome tourmaline/tourmaline, dematoid/tsavorite garnet. I would personally pick tsavorite garnet for the green/sparkle/price, but emerald has a glow that is really unlike the other stones. Tsavorite garnets also tend to have more yellowish green, while emeralds have a bluish green.

Your platinumsmith should be able to work with any of these. There are other green stones that are softer, but I cannot recommend them for everyday wear. It comes down to personal preference.

Thanks so much for this great detail and the link. What a great resource. Interesting that emerald is harder than tsavorite. I thought the opposite for some reason.

So, durability is an issue because I'd like to not have to replace the hidden gem in the future. That said, I'm not sure what kind of damage could occur when it's not exposed to bumping and bruising. Maybe an emerald will be fine? I'm aiming for the hidden gem to be under the head of the solitaire. It will probably make contact with skin but that's it.

Problem with green sapphire, which is harder than emerald, is that it's not the kind of green I'm looking for. The bluish-green of emerald would be best. If there were something harder that could minimally compromise the color, I think I'd go with that.

I need to research treated diamonds more.

For the most part, I'm less concerned with price. It can't be kryponite-like prices. I just want to get it right (i.e. Irish green).

I'd stick with tsavorite or emerald for what you want. I'd actually probably do tsavorite for a few reasons.

1. Hardness is not everything. Emeralds are very brittle. So while on the Mohs scale, emeralds come out higher, they are very brittle and can be quite porous.

2. Tsavorites sparkle more. Emeralds glow. I like sparkle.

3. Tsavorites are uncommon. I like to be weird.

4. A good quality tsavorite can be bluer-green, not necessarily yellow-green.

Either would work. I'd dismiss sapphires though--too olivey.

Written by minousbijoux » October 4th, 2011, 8:35 pm:First off I have to say that this is brilliant - will the DF have a secret stone as well recognizing the Irish heritage?

While I'm a sapphire lover, my vote would not be for sapphire, because it will be difficult to find in an intense pure green. I think of irish green as the color of the lush hills and pastures after a rain, so I think of Pandora's tsavorite or an emerald. I see olive-ish green demantoids but not often do I see pure green demantoids, and if I do, they're typically russian and expensive. So I say chrome tourmaline, tsavorite or emerald.

I can't wait to see how you do this!

Thanks so much for the enthusiasm. I'm not up on my lingo/abbreviations. What is "DF" stand for?

The hidden green is to represent her Irish heritage. I'm not Irish. I intend to have a twist in my wedding band, but I'm not sure what that will be yet. Right now, it's all about the e-ring.

I completely agree that sapphire won't quite do the job.

It will come down to weighing the idealness of the color vs. hardness.

Written by FrekeChild » October 4th, 2011, 9:45 pm:I'd stick with tsavorite or emerald for what you want. I'd actually probably do tsavorite for a few reasons.

1. Hardness is not everything. Emeralds are very brittle. So while on the Mohs scale, emeralds come out higher, they are very brittle and can be quite porous.

2. Tsavorites sparkle more. Emeralds glow. I like sparkle.

3. Tsavorites are uncommon. I like to be weird.

4. A good quality tsavorite can be bluer-green, not necessarily yellow-green.

Either would work. I'd dismiss sapphires though--too olivey.

So, no one is advocating for a green treated diamond? Is it because of not getting the right color (I haven't seen any green ones other than online pics)? Cost? Hardness is ideal. Not sure how close it can get to emerald or tsavorite in terms of color.

I don't know...if you are going to the trouble of finding something green to represent Ireland, do you really want something that had to be treated to make it green? Tsavorite or emerald.

Oh, and I was thinking you were a woman and I was referring to your Dear Fiance.

Written by minousbijoux » October 4th, 2011, 10:11 pm:I don't know...if you are going to the trouble of finding something green to represent Ireland, do you really want something that had to be treated to make it green? Tsavorite or emerald.

Oh, and I was thinking you were a woman and I was referring to your Dear Fiance.

I guess pragmatism is the reason I was thinking treated diamond. But, if the location of the green gemstone (under the head of the solitaire; culet towards diamond if there's a culet) will not render it vulnerable, I lean towards tsavorite or emerald.

Thanks for the help.

I don't think that green diamonds (natural -really light/really expensive or irradiated - usually quite dark) are the right color green. And because this stone will not see direct "abuse" from getting knocked around, as an outside (as in, on the outside of a ring) stone would, I really don't think that hardness is something that should come into play. The only abuse that this stone is likely to see is lotion residue and skin oils.

So really, it's all about color.

0.16 blue-green diamond, 3.14x2.89x1.94
http://www.fancydiamonds.net/view_diamonds/3341.htm
$30k

0.19 blue-green diamond, 2.99x2.80x2.47
http://www.fancydiamonds.net/view_diamonds/3190.htm
$25k

I'd guess that those are cost-prohibitive...

I would go for a tsavorite over an emerald as you can then put the ring in an ultrasonic for cleaning - but no steam cleaning under any circumstances (watch jewellers on that one as few know about coloured stones!)

Written by CedarRapids » October 4th, 2011, 9:49 pm:

Written by FrekeChild » October 4th, 2011, 9:45 pm:I'd stick with tsavorite or emerald for what you want. I'd actually probably do tsavorite for a few reasons.

1. Hardness is not everything. Emeralds are very brittle. So while on the Mohs scale, emeralds come out higher, they are very brittle and can be quite porous.

2. Tsavorites sparkle more. Emeralds glow. I like sparkle.

3. Tsavorites are uncommon. I like to be weird.

4. A good quality tsavorite can be bluer-green, not necessarily yellow-green.

Either would work. I'd dismiss sapphires though--too olivey.

So, no one is advocating for a green treated diamond? Is it because of not getting the right color (I haven't seen any green ones other than online pics)? Cost? Hardness is ideal. Not sure how close it can get to emerald or tsavorite in terms of color.

I always forget the rules on this one...I can't remember but I know on some forums you can't discuss snythetic diamonds/ colored stones. Or is that different from treated diamonds? Regardless I think in this forum you will fine that 99.9% of the people here perfer untreated stones or in some cases heated stones (such as sapphires). I know for me personally I would much rather have a Chrome tourmailne or a Tsav in my ering then a treated green diamond.

Written by FrekeChild » October 4th, 2011, 9:45 pm:I'd stick with tsavorite or emerald for what you want. I'd actually probably do tsavorite for a few reasons.

1. Hardness is not everything. Emeralds are very brittle. So while on the Mohs scale, emeralds come out higher, they are very brittle and can be quite porous.

FrekeChild is absolutely correct. Mohs scale only has to do with hardness in terms of scratching. This webpage talks more about this:
http://www.rocksandminerals.com/hardness/mohs.htm

The Mohs scale does not indicate if a stone can take a blow, such as banging a stone on a door knob. Natural emeralds often contain "gardens", or basically a bunch of inclusions that affect their durability. Another stone that is brittle is tsavorite.

I think no on is advocating for a cooked/treated diamond because we truly love our colored stones, and many of us love natural stones (diamond or otherwise).

Written by Pandora » October 5th, 2011, 3:41 am:I would go for a tsavorite over an emerald as you can then put the ring in an ultrasonic for cleaning - but no steam cleaning under any circumstances (watch jewellers on that one as few know about coloured stones!)

Good point! Tsavorite would be the optimal choice for durability and that "Irish green" color. Emerald, while the more traditional choice, would be fine too, but I think a tsavorite would better withstand the gypsy setting inside a ring. I personally wouldn't put any jewelery in a US cleaner. I don't like them at all, they tend to loosen diamonds, and enhance internal cracks, or feathers, in stones.

This is great. Thanks everyone for your help and insight.

The platinumsmith was steering me towards the treated green diamond because of long term durability. If it ever needed to be replaced, a lot of platinum surgery would be required. Perhaps the risk is negligible given its location.

Here's what I've synthesized from this discussion:

1. Color. Emerald, tsavorite, tourmaline for "Irish" green color. No to sapphire. Probably no to treated diamond.
2. Durability. Tsavorite and tourmaline are better options than emerald. Emerald is hardest among the three but the most brittle.
3. Sparkle (tsavorite, tourmaline) vs. glow (emerald).
4. Do not use ultrasonic cleaning if I go with an emerald. No steam cleaning for any of the (non-diamond) options.

Lots to think about. I also have to check if the backside of the housing for the hidden gemstone will be open or closed and if light can get in or not. Probably not much regardless because of the prongs.

thanks everyone.

Written by CedarRapids » October 5th, 2011, 10:01 am:This is great. Thanks everyone for your help and insight.

The platinumsmith was steering me towards the treated green diamond because of long term durability. If it ever needed to be replaced, a lot of platinum surgery would be required. Perhaps the risk is negligible given its location.

Here's what I've synthesized from this discussion:

1. Color. Emerald, tsavorite, tourmaline for "Irish" green color. No to sapphire. Probably no to treated diamond.
2. Durability. Tsavorite and tourmaline are better options than emerald. Emerald is hardest among the three but the most brittle.
3. Sparkle (tsavorite, tourmaline) vs. glow (emerald).
4. Do not use ultrasonic cleaning if I go with an emerald. No steam cleaning for any of the (non-diamond) options.

Lots to think about. I also have to check if the backside of the housing for the hidden gemstone will be open or closed and if light can get in or not. Probably not much regardless because of the prongs.

thanks everyone.

I chipped two emeralds during the setting process in platium, so I wouldn't recommend platinum at all for an emerald, in particular one with a gypsy setting. I might even be a little scared for a tsavorite. I hope you have a top notch expert platinumsmith.

Written by TL » October 5th, 2011, 10:11 am:I chipped two emeralds during the setting process in platium, so I wouldn't recommend platinum at all for an emerald, in particular one with a gypsy setting. I might even be a little scared for a tsavorite. I hope you have a top notch expert platinumsmith.

Yes, I think so (Mark Morrell).

One factor I can't ignore is finding a gemstone that is round and about 2mm. Chrome tourmaline might be harder to find in a round. Easy for the tsavorites. I assume for emeralds too. Mark provides the accent stones. So, we'll see what the options are. Right now, I'm just researching.

Written by CedarRapids » October 5th, 2011, 10:23 am:

Written by TL » October 5th, 2011, 10:11 am:I chipped two emeralds during the setting process in platium, so I wouldn't recommend platinum at all for an emerald, in particular one with a gypsy setting. I might even be a little scared for a tsavorite. I hope you have a top notch expert platinumsmith.

Yes, I think so (Mark Morrell).

One factor I can't ignore is finding a gemstone that is round and about 2mm. Chrome tourmaline might be harder to find in a round. Easy for the tsavorites. I assume for emeralds too. Mark provides the accent stones. So, we'll see what the options are. Right now, I'm just researching.

For finding a green stone I would contact:

Rick at ArtCutGems
Barry at ACStones

There are many others who could cut you a stone but I happen to like Rick and Barry's choices of green. Perhaps other PSers could chime in. I know 2mm is small but I think you could still get a custom cut.

For 2mm leave the sourcing to the jeweller for many reasons, not least that they take the risk on the stone while setting it rather than you.

Diamonds are not that hard to damage either. They have perfect cleavage so bash them in the wrong place and you've got two diamonds rather than one. Bash a tsavorite in the wrong place and it will chip, but it won't split.

I would definitely go for a tsav over a chrome tourmaline. Tsavorites are the hardest stone out there, but they are not brittle, they're actually reasonably tough. If you are gypsy setting then you might also want a lighter tone than premium as it will darken in the setting. I would think a chrome tourmaline would be a tad too dark.

Cedar Rapids ;

If you are not certain that a faceted gem will show any brilliance you could always use imperial chrysoprase or imperial jadeite; they are a good chromium green and cost is minimal and it has the look... Also some of the non-imperial chrysoprase has a really glowing look about it.

Just a thought... if you do not go with a faceted gem; also in faceted gems; diopside if the gem will be protected is a good green especially the Russian "chrome diopside" but to me a shamrock green is the emerald in a faceted gem... but in a 3mm gem you really want something that POPS...

Just my 3 cents

Most respectfully;

Dana

Written by Pandora » October 5th, 2011, 11:49 am:For 2mm leave the sourcing to the jeweller for many reasons, not least that they take the risk on the stone while setting it rather than you.

Diamonds are not that hard to damage either. They have perfect cleavage so bash them in the wrong place and you've got two diamonds rather than one. Bash a tsavorite in the wrong place and it will chip, but it won't split.

I would definitely go for a tsav over a chrome tourmaline. Tsavorites are the hardest stone out there, but they are not brittle, they're actually reasonably tough. If you are gypsy setting then you might also want a lighter tone than premium as it will darken in the setting. I would think a chrome tourmaline would be a tad too dark.

Tsavorites AREN'T the hardest stone out there - sorry, typo, I was not attempting to argue with Mr Mohs.

Written by mastercutgems » October 5th, 2011, 1:48 pm:Cedar Rapids ;

If you are not certain that a faceted gem will show any brilliance you could always use imperial chrysoprase or imperial jadeite; they are a good chromium green and cost is minimal and it has the look... Also some of the non-imperial chrysoprase has a really glowing look about it.

Just a thought... if you do not go with a faceted gem; also in faceted gems; diopside if the gem will be protected is a good green especially the Russian "chrome diopside" but to me a shamrock green is the emerald in a faceted gem... but in a 3mm gem you really want something that POPS...

Just my 3 cents

Most respectfully;

Dana

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll look into it. Diopside may be too soft for the platinumsmith to work with.

I'm pretty certain the gemstone will have to be only 2mm given the ring shank.

Written by Pandora » October 5th, 2011, 1:51 pm:

Written by Pandora » October 5th, 2011, 11:49 am:For 2mm leave the sourcing to the jeweller for many reasons, not least that they take the risk on the stone while setting it rather than you.

Diamonds are not that hard to damage either. They have perfect cleavage so bash them in the wrong place and you've got two diamonds rather than one. Bash a tsavorite in the wrong place and it will chip, but it won't split.

I would definitely go for a tsav over a chrome tourmaline. Tsavorites are the hardest stone out there, but they are not brittle, they're actually reasonably tough. If you are gypsy setting then you might also want a lighter tone than premium as it will darken in the setting. I would think a chrome tourmaline would be a tad too dark.

Tsavorites AREN'T the hardest stone out there - sorry, typo, I was not attempting to argue with Mr Mohs.

Good point about the green darkening on a gypsy setting. I'm going to post some pics that have served as inspiration for this idea. next post. Shortly.

The Nested Crown setting served as inspiration for hiding a green gemstone. This is not the setting I am selecting.

The pictures shown are with pink and lavender sapphires. Pretty cool, huh?

I will have a diamond center stone, so the green stone underneath the crown will not show through.

I will have to look into the transparency of the green gemstone options. If the backside of the setting is closed, it's a moot point.

Attachments

MWM nested crown backside.JPG (77.29 KiB) Viewed 198 times

MWM nested crown front.JPG (43.18 KiB) Viewed 198 times

Wow, that is a cool idea! Thanks for the visual. As you say, though, it will be a challenge finding a way to have the green stone not darken too much.