$1,000 - $150,000 Sapphire engagement ring

1. Well since you say she''s petite, I would say that 20 carats is out. Sapphires are heavier than diamonds so, all things being equal (which they never are), a 1 carat sapphire will be smaller than a 1 carat diamond. Colored stones are frequently cut for color rather than light return so having a sapphire with a lot of weight in the belly (bottom part of the stone) will make it face up smaller as well.

2. Dunno.

3. I don''t know how reliable their grading system is, but I would get the stone appraised independently in any case.

4. Yes, they''re reputable. I''ve purchased from http://www.ajsgems.com and http://www.acstones.com and have been very happy with what I''ve received. If you''re looking very high end there''s http://www.rwwise.com and http://www.cherrypicked.com. In both of those cases you''re not only paying for the stone but you''re paying for the eye of the gemologist.

5. Pro: you get the exact stone you want with the exact ring you want. Cons: It is likely that you''ll have to go custom for the setting because not all gemstones are cut to fit into standard sized settings.

6. Wink Jones - http://www.winkjones.com - a PS vendor with a BM store in Boise.

7. It will affect the price but whether it matters to you or not is up to you.

8. Online I haven''t found a lot of bargaining power as the margins are pretty low anyhow. Not sure about B&M stores.

Date: 10/31/2007 10:51:43 AM
Author:ER_Doc_Mike
Please help a complete newbie to the sapphire world to pick out a blue rock in a metal ring for his beloved!

I''d like a light blue sapphire, possibly with diamonds embedded in the ring. Not a 3-stone setting though. The love of my life is quite small (5''4'', 115 lb) and as such, I wouldn''t want a huge stone which is going to look too big on her.

Question 1: given that money is no object, what carat size should I be looking at? 2 carats? 20 carats?

I went to van Cleef & Arpels and Cartier in downtown Chicago yesterday, and have decided that what I''d really like is a roundish cut. I don''t think the emerald or cushion cuts would flatter her features quite as much.

As for money (subject line!), the stone I buy must be reasonable value for money. ''How much would you like to spend?'' is, in my humble opinion, a loaded question. As long as I''m paying a reasonable amount based on market prices for similar stones, and am not being grossly overcharged, I''ll be happy.

That depends on your girl.  Does she like more flash or something more subtle??? 

Question 2: regarding the premium that the downtown Chicago stores charge for their stones, is that reasonable? What benefits does one receive for the premium?

I''ve also looked online at the Natural Sapphire Company.

Question 3: if NSC self-grades one of their own stones as ''IF'' or ''VVS2'', how reliable is that? Is it possible to get the stone re-certified using GIA, etc?

Question 4: Is NSC reputable? What other internet sites would you say were reliable for big gem purchases? Do you have a bricks & mortar, physical store that you recommend or is recognised to be very respectable? I am prepared to travel out-of-state and even internationally to get this ring.

Question 5: What are the pros and cons of buying a stone and ring separately, as opposed to buying a pre-set ring?

You could have Leon Mege design the ring which would be gorgeous and well crafted or Mark Morrell.

Question 6: Who is ''Wink''? I saw this individual referred to in another post.
http://www.winkjones.com/  owner of Winfield''s
Question 7: van Cleef and Arpels yesterday made a big deal about their $91,000 2.6 carat sapphire because it was sourced from Kashmir. Does geographical origin really matter?

Question 8: What are typical bargaining parameters? Should I expect to pay the marked price, or 5% below it, or 25%, etc?

Thank you so much in advance for your responses. I''m getting excited just thinking about it!

I would check out Winfield''s, cherry picked and Natural Sapphire company.  Happy shopping

HI:

Somewhere in your "travels", check out RW Wise.  Beautiful jewellery and loose gemstones.

cheers--Sharon

Date: 10/31/2007 10:51:43 AM
Author:ER_Doc_Mike
Please help a complete newbie to the sapphire world to pick out a blue rock in a metal ring for his beloved!

I''d like a light blue sapphire, possibly with diamonds embedded in the ring. Not a 3-stone setting though. The love of my life is quite small (5''4'', 115 lb) and as such, I wouldn''t want a huge stone which is going to look too big on her.

Question 1: given that money is no object, what carat size should I be looking at? 2 carats? 20 carats?
Well, the size depends upon personal taste.  I find something around 2 to 3 carats tasteful.  Any larger, and my finger cannot pull it off.  I''m probably close to your GF''s size.  On the other hand, there are others here who are about the same size as well but are able to carry off larger 4 to 5 carats gemstones.

I went to van Cleef & Arpels and Cartier in downtown Chicago yesterday, and have decided that what I''d really like is a roundish cut. I don''t think the emerald or cushion cuts would flatter her features quite as much.
Round cut gemstones brings out the best brilliance.  A good choice, especially in sapphires.

As for money (subject line!), the stone I buy must be reasonable value for money. ''How much would you like to spend?'' is, in my humble opinion, a loaded question. As long as I''m paying a reasonable amount based on market prices for similar stones, and am not being grossly overcharged, I''ll be happy.
Absolutely, this is the right way of thinking.

Question 2: regarding the premium that the downtown Chicago stores charge for their stones, is that reasonable? What benefits does one receive for the premium?
Sorry, I have no idea.

I''ve also looked online at the Natural Sapphire Company.
NSC is a good place to start your search.  I would also try:
Wink of www.winkjones.com 
Gary Dutton of www.diamondexpert.com
Barbara of www.acstones.com
Jeff White of www.whitesgems.com
Lembeck Gems in NYC: LembeckGems@msn.com

Question 3: if NSC self-grades one of their own stones as ''IF'' or ''VVS2'', how reliable is that? Is it possible to get the stone re-certified using GIA, etc?
I remember an older post here on Pricescope where a PScoper was looking to buy a VS stone but the inclusion was obvious to the naked eye.  Not a common occurance but something to keep in the back of your mind.  I would suggest having an independent appraiser to check out the stone of your choice before final acceptance.

Question 4: Is NSC reputable? What other internet sites would you say were reliable for big gem purchases? Do you have a bricks & mortar, physical store that you recommend or is recognised to be very respectable? I am prepared to travel out-of-state and even internationally to get this ring.
Answered at Question 2.

Question 5: What are the pros and cons of buying a stone and ring separately, as opposed to buying a pre-set ring?
I much prefer to buy an unset stone, then pick out the setting of my choice.  It is difficult as it is to purchase a coloured gemstone:  a person has to consider the cutting quality (extinction, windowing, facet points, etc.), the colour (saturation, tone, hue, zoning, etc.) and clarity and size.  Unset gemstones are also much easier to access unset.

Question 6: Who is ''Wink''? I saw this individual referred to in another post.
Refered to in my answer to Question 2.  He sourced 2 dreamy velvety yet electric blue sapphire sidestones for my right hand ring.

Question 7: van Cleef and Arpels yesterday made a big deal about their $91,000 2.6 carat sapphire because it was sourced from Kashmir. Does geographical origin really matter?
Yes, and no.  Kashmir is know for that velvety electric blue sapphires.  However, one can also get lousy blue sapphires from that region (although I''m 100% VCA sells top notch stuff so it''s most likely to be the nice sapphires.)  It is also possible to get sapphires with the Kashimir look from elsewhere without the Kashmir pricetag.  It all depends on what bragging rights you are after.

Question 8: What are typical bargaining parameters? Should I expect to pay the marked price, or 5% below it, or 25%, etc?
It doesn''t hurt to ask the vendor for a discount.  Pricing all depends on the treatment (or lack of - but heat treatment is acceptable, all others aren''t), colour, cutting, size, and clarity and rarity (which is a factor of all that were mentioned), and to a certain degree, its pedigree (country of origin).  AND also, the vendor''s markup.  Online vendors probably have the least markup.

Thank you so much in advance for your responses. I''m getting excited just thinking about it!

Hello ER Doc.

  Sapphire has a slightly higher speicfic gravity than diamond so it is smaller than a diamond of the same weight. You will get a more accurate idea of size by looking for a stome by its diameter  measurment. A seven mm stone could weigh between one to three cts. Depending on the cut. Granted a one ct. 7mm stone would most likely have a window. A three ct would be deemed excessively deep by most. Although in a lighter tone the extra depth could add saturation to the color.

 The more intense the blue color in a clean well cut stone the more money you can expect to pay.

A lot of  Kashmir sapphires have a type of inclusion called "silk"that gives the stone a slightly "vevlety " look. This greatly reduces the extinction seen in other sapphires. kashmir is not the only source for stones with this type of inclusion though. Be aware that a stone can have too much "silk" and that is not a good thing.

 As for your last question.  You never know unless you try.

For a lady that size & in a round cut I would think that 5cts would be the biggest you''d want to go. I think you could find an absolutely gorgeous ring with a sapphire that size for $15 - $25k. There are many gorgeous stones and rings at the Natural Sapphire Company.

I know this isn't what have in mind, but I love this circa 1935 VC&A diamond (2.2 ct) and sapphire ring....

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I would get some of the above vendors to see what they can come up with - don''t just look on their sites, contact them.

Palagems have some gorgeous rocks - they are trade-only, but people like Wink deal with them a lot.

Wink got me my tsavorite - and it was beyond what I hoped for. The other think is you can get him to call you in stones and then look at them on WinkTV on your computer. I did that to buy from the UK. My stone has been much admired by high-end jewellers in New Bond Street, London who all think it''s a great emerald. Yup, I highly recommend Wink.

Rounds are more difficult to find in sapphires - cushions and ovals are more common.

The first thing to decide is what colour you like - light blue, vivid blue, slightly purple blue etc etc.

Sapphires won''t sparkle like a diamond does, but the sleepy ones with the silk just glow.

On discount, a lot of PS vendors will treat you very well if you are from PS. I don''t haggle to be honest. If I trust the person, like the stone and the price, I am trusting on their integrity to charge me a fair price in return for their expertise, eye and access to more prettys than I have!

I have a 1.42ct stone which is a good size on my size 6 fingers (I''m 5ft 10"). I wouldn''t really want to ever go bigger than 2.5ct for an e-ring. Too big starts to look like a cocktail ring.

I hope you intend to come back and post lots of pictures so we can all enjoy your search

...and this Tiffany ring from 1910:

Sapphire approx. 4 cts, dias approx. 2.8 cts

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NSC is who I would buy from.  I think they have some of the nicest sapphires I''ve ever seen.  Steven is a straight shooter, bought from him myself.  And was thrilled with my sapphire.  Good luck!!!

I shopped for two matching sapphires several years ago and it was difficult to find nice stones that were not that Thai dark navy blue hue, which I'm not fond of at all. I have always preferred the velvetly royal blue/purplish hue of a Kashimir sapphire. That said, it is highly unlikely that the stone you saw was from Kashmir as according to legend, those mines have long been mined dry. If it is indeed Kashmiri, it's likely that it is an antique stone. Did they say it was an antique stone? More likely is that that color is a Ceylon sapphire, which are known to be more of a cornflower blue, varying intensities but usually with a slight purply undertone...I love them and NSC has a ton of stones like that. I haven't bought there myself but they have gorgeous stones and if you do a search on here for them you'll find some threads of folks who've done business with them.

That said, if you want to splurge on a fantastic centerstone from them, Leon Mege could whip you up a custom plat ring that would knock her socks off!

As for size, well, depends on the size of your GF...She sounds quite petite so I think a 2ct sapphire would look very substantial on her hand. Have you gone ring shopping with her? Do you know for sure that she wants a sapphire as her ering? I assume you've talked of marriage so I'd recommend you take her shopping first, narrow it down to shape and size and setting and once you know exactly what she loves, then start narrowing it down.

ETA: I noticed that in your post you say, "What I like is a round.." I think it's REALLY important to remember that it should be about what SHE loves, not what you like...because she's going to be wearing it for the rest of her life and she should LOVE it!

I''d probably stick with NSC or RW Wise to make life simpler (with excellent quality, of course!)

http://www.rwwise.com/index_content.html

He has a 2.7 ct. beautiful round pictured on the site now, #6163, but he''ll have many stones not on the site. So call.

For settings, Leon Mege or Maytal Hannah:

http://www.artofplatinum.com/

http://www.maytalhannah.com/

Here is a link to a ring I saves with a lighter blue sapphire, gorgeous!!!

http://www.topazery.com/antique-jewelry-item-rg1920.htm

This is a Beverley K setting and you could still get the setting and set your own stone.  That sapphire is only 1.5 carats, so the kind of setting you want will influence the size of the sapphire. I do adore the lighter ones, too!

For the stone I would try NSC or RW Wise. I am from the town next to RW Wise''s shop and let me tell you, his stuff is GORGEOUS! He also makes beautiful custom pieces if you like the more modern angular look. If antique is your GF''s love, then go to Leon Mege for the setting. And if she likes jewelry with flowing graceful curves, I would get the setting from Mark Morrell. Good luck!

My recommendation is this stunning ring from 23rd street jewelers. And a call to ask them for pics of any other rings they have that match your requirements. Or I''d call Neil Lane.

KA-THUNK.

Ouch.

It really hurts when my jaw hits the floor like that, Gypsy! Some warning before you post something that scrumptious, please!

I agree with Pandora, the first thing you need to do is to decide upon the color you want. For myself, it''s all about the "glow". Yes, sapphires may not sparkle like a diamond but if you find the right one it gives off this almost electric glow that is facinating.

Date: 10/31/2007 7:50:37 PM
Author: Ninama

I know this isn''t what have in mind, but I love this circa 1935 VC&A diamond (2.2 ct) and sapphire ring....

Wow, Ninama!  Where is this from?

Date: 11/1/2007 11:09:54 AM
Author: ER_Doc_Mike

Date: 10/31/2007 7:50:37 PM
Author: Ninama

I know this isn't what have in mind, but I love this circa 1935 VC&A diamond (2.2 ct) and sapphire ring....

Wow, Ninama! Where is this from?

The Van Cleef Alhambra ring is beautiful; I wonder if it is for sale?????

Everyone, thank you so much for all your replies.  They are extremely helpful.  Here''s a summary of my travels so far:

Tuesday 10/30 

Went to van Cleef and Arpels & Cartier in downtown Chicago.  Cartier didn''t have anything with sapphires which I liked, while van Cleef had a 2.6 carat $91000 Kashmir sapphire in an emerald cut, which was very nice except the cut really didn''t appeal to me.

Wednesday 10/31

Started this thread on Pricescope.  Called Richard at CherryPicked and Stephen at NSC.  I have appointments with both of them in New York City scheduled for Thursday 11/8.

I also called Wink, who said he''d get back to me today (Thursday 11/1)

I also went to several more jewelers in downtown Chicago:

Jeweler''s Mall on Wabash and State:  Everyone here, and in the surrounding stores, appears to specialise in diamonds only.  The few stores which had sapphires only had a few, and they were all heat-treated, and the staff didn''t seem too knowledgable about them.

Goldin''s on Michigan Avenue:  Excellent excellent service.  Very classy offices.  The owner, Bill, took care of me, and asked me what I liked.  (He even offered to lend me his book on gem values, since I showed such an interest).  He will hopefully have a selection of sapphires and settings ready for me next Friday (11/9).

Trabert & Hoeffer on Oak St:  These guys were recommended to me by Richard at CherryPicked.  They had a little over a dozen sapphires, but none suited my tastes.

Plan from today

I think I will visit a few more high-end boutiques like van Cleef.  Really, no jewelers in Chicago seem to have a decent selection of sapphires.  But I figure if I go to high-end stores, at least what I see will be of high quality.

I am really looking forward to visiting NSC and Cherry Picked in NYC next week.

Another vote of appreciation for all your replies

Thank you so much for pointing me in the right direction.  It''s really been very helpful.  I''m an active member on flyertalk.com, and we try to help out newbies to the aviation business with every aspect of trip-planning, from ticketing to airport etiquette to irregular operations handling, etc.  It''s really nice to be on the other side of the fence and have people help me!

I would still very much like to hear more suggestions on retailers, online and bricks & mortar, who will have a decent selection and knowledge of sapphires.

For those of you who posted pics of rings, could you please post which stores they''re from?

Thanks once again!

The ring I posted is from http://www.23rdstreetjewelers.com/

I also recommended Neil Lane-- he does celebrity rings and lovely ones too. http://www.neillanejewelry.com/

Another jeweler I recommend is ... oh I can''t recall the name.  Deals in REALLY high end vintage and antique jewelry. It''s gonna bug me now.  

i can tell by your posts that you will find the perfect ring.
good for you on getting appointments with cherrypicked and tnsc!  i think those are going to be the most worthwhile, informative and productive parts of your process.  take time and learn all you can while you''re there!

How exciting!  It looks like you are looking at all the right places.  The only place I didn''t see mentioned was Pala gems.  I have gotten a couple pieces from Wink and highly recommend him. 

Please keep us posted on your search!

I think this stone is beautiful!! I am not an expert, just think very pretty...

http://www.simplysapphires.com/html/imagesblue2006/blueons430-sm.html

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Hey,

You might also want to check out concavegems.com -- Richard''s one of the best cutters in the industry. You might fall in love with one of his stones if you email him at rhomer@concavegems.com and specify exactly what you''re looking for :)

You may also want to check out http://www.kashmirblue.com

If you are going to NYC - try and get an appointment with Leon Mege ( www.artofplatinum.com).

He has amazing settings and seems to be able to access fine stones.

He''s is well loved on these boards.

I bought a beautiful unheated Burma Sapphire from Cherrypicked... Robert at www.preciousgemstones.com  might be another good source.

While doing the hunting yourself can be fun,  I've been really impressed with the gems that Leon Mege has sourced for his clients.  If I were you,  I'd be tempted to let him do the stone hunting,  and then have him mount it.

widget

PS:  I was just thinking...If I had a huge budget,  I'd be sorely tempted to look for an authentic old mine certified Kashmir Sapphire....particularly if it performed like they are fabled to perform  (Soft glow with little extinction).   One way to get a feel for what they're selling for is to check out auction results at Sotheby's,  Christies,  etc.

That ring from 23rd St. Jewelry that Gypsy posted is absolutely amazing.  To die for!

Date: 11/1/2007 8:47:00 PM
Author: widget
I bought a beautiful unheated Burma Sapphire from Cherrypicked... Robert at www.preciousgemstones.com might be another good source.

While doing the hunting yourself can be fun, I''ve been really impressed with the gems that Leon Mege has sourced for his clients. If I were you, I''d be tempted to let him do the stone hunting, and then have him mount it.

widget

PS: I was just thinking...If I had a huge budget, I''d be sorely tempted to look for an authentic old mine certified Kashmir Sapphire....particularly if it performed like they are fabled to perform (Soft glow with little extinction). One way to get a feel for what they''re selling for is to check out auction results at Sotheby''s, Christies, etc.

Widget, back in the first post he said Van Cleef has a little 2.6 Kashmir stone for a mere $91,000.  I think Burma or Ceylon would be just fine with me!

But Mike, do not assume those high end jewelry stores have the best quality stones. We have recently had several cases of people getting stats on diamonds from Cartier, Harry Winston, and Tiffany, and none had the cut quality of the stones we see daily on this forum.

You will be FAR better served to get someone like Richard Wise to select an amazing sapphire for you and then have someone like Leon Mege set it. It''ll be finer quality (with the exception of the Kashmir stone!) and cost probably half as much as a comparable ring in one of those stores.

Except for Leon''s three and five stone stone settings. I personally prefer 23rd Street Jeweler''s settings. It''s worth a call to see if they would set a stone purchased elsewhere IMO. While we refer a lot of people to Leon, there are other options out there, and nice ones at that.