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some thoughts:
europe has been moving to the right for some time now. intolerance of minorities and immigrants despite the fact that many of those people come from colonies that had been held by france, belgium, etc. and imo those countries have a responsibility. i'm not so sure its a rise of anti-semitism as much as it never was really completely addressed and dealt with after WWII. when things go bad with an economy, a group always gets scapegoated. we see it here in the US as well. |
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Thank you for your thoughts MoZo.
I just find it upsetting that anti semitism, which is racism against Jews, is rarely mentioned IMO as compared to other forms of racism. The thing is, that history has shown that whenever anti semitism becomes "popular" the persecution of other minorities is right there or not far behind. Sometimes I wonder if people are 100% cognizant of that fact. I mean, it seems that anti semitism is present in minority groups even more so than certain majority groups. That is especially concerning to me. I personally have heard upsetting comments (from people who don't realize I am Jewish though I certainly set them straight after their appalling comments) and I can only think it comes from a place of ignorance as does all racism. When these people realize I am Jewish I often get comments like oh, you don't seem Jewish or you're different than most Jewish people. It is quite concerning that such an ignorance exists still. After all we have been through in this world.In recent years anti semitism has most definitely been on the rise. Especially in the Islamic world and in countries where the Holocaust occurred. The president of Iran repeatedly has declared the Holocaust a “myth” and that Israel should be “wiped off the map.” Denial and minimization of the Holocaust, along with other forms of hatred against Jews, is now widespread on the Internet. I am definitely seeing a rise in this hateful behavior and the latest polls I posted is but one example. It is not about Jews or Israel. It is about everything we have long fought for as a nation. Tolerance and acceptance, fighting bigotry and extremism, no matter one's religion or political beliefs. Anti semitism threatens all of humanity. Sorry if this feels like a lecture or anything. I just wanted to get PSer's thoughts on this. It seems that the tragedy of Trayvon Martin's death (I know the facts are not out yet but just thinking out loud) is but all part of this (irrational) hatred against people who are (perceived) different (but not really different if you KWIM) in some way. It can be insidious at times and quite obvious at other times. |
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this remains true:
"In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up." -- by Martin Niemöller as you noted, missy, other groups were also persecuted along with the jews throughout history. during WWII the gypsy peoples were equally hard hit.... and once again in europe they are being hard hit, some would argue that their treatment right now would be a whisper to the future re attitudes towards jews. did you see the movie Sarah's Key? in some ways i think there are those in france trying to deal with their collaboration with the nazi occupation and contribution to the french jewish round ups and transport to camps for extermination. see this movie if you can. there is a reason why the jewish community engaged in the struggle for civil rights.....because it was understood that the civil rights denied to one group could be easily denied to another. |
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Thanks MoZo for that quote-I have heard it before but forgot it. Chilling and true. I haven't seen Sarah's Key and will definitely put it on my to see movie list. Thanks for the recommendation. Have you seen Incendies? It's also a chilling movie about discrimination and the havoc it wreaks on its own. A must see movie. It was one of the best I have seen in a long time. http://bostonianonfilm.blogspot.com/2011/05/incendies-film-as-metaphor.html |
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I must admit that I naively thought anti-Semitism was really a thing of the past. Apparently I was sorely mistaken. There is not a large Jewish population in Perth that I've ever seen (unless it is very insular), so I think you would be hard pressed to find a West Australian with those views. One's religion just never registers with me - a person is a person is a person, you know? I guess I was expecting too much to assume everyone else thought the same way.
I read Sarah's Key and it was devastating. My goodness, what a dark mark in the history of France. It's appalling that not only is that history not being openly discussed, but is being denied with a fresh surge of discrimination, hatred.
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Thanks for your honesty justginger. I think education is key when it comes to eradicating all forms of racism from society.
Not realizing there's a problem adds to the insidiousness of it and allows it to flourish. How many groups of people all over the world are murdered in the name of religion or for being perceived different and how aware are we of all of it? When will the madness ever end-will it ever end? Here's another disturbing article about the Toulouse attack. http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/airbrushing-anti-semitism-out-of-the-toulouse-attack-1.421436
Here's another thought provoking article I just read. I am very curious what others think. http://www.algemeiner.com/2012/03/30/peter-beinart-racism-vs-anti-semitism/
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yes, i saw Incendies.
i would also argue politics within The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo speak to neo-nazi existence as well....... please try and see Sarah's Key soon. i'd love to discuss it with you. we were in belgium about 10 years ago and as is my tendancy i get into conversations....or i should say people end feeling comfortable with me and talking. there was a young man at the hotel we were staying at who had married an immigrant woman from south american. it was enlightening as to how far the country had moved to the right at that time. more later. |
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I just did a search and it is available on our netflix streaming (which I joined a few months ago to watch Downton Abbey and that was the last thing I watched on it but kept our membership so YAY!)! We are going to watch it tonight after we get home from bringing our furbabies to the vet (their aunt Debbie) in Long Island. It's a whole day affair since her office is far from us. Looking forward to watching this movie now MoZo. When it first came out I didn't want to see it because I hate watching more movies about the Holocaust. So upsetting but now I am looking forward to it. Thanks for the recommendation. |
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My dh and I just watched Sarah's Key. It was good. I cannot say I enjoyed it as I always get upset when I watch Holocaust movies but I like movies that make you think. How much are we a product of our history? Can we really ever escape the past? Can we change who we are and where we come from and make a happy new life?
I was shocked (all over again as I relived that part watching the movie) that the French people didn't even acknowledge their role or apologize in the rounding up and murdering of Jews until 1995. I am not saying I do not understand why they felt they had to do what they did during the Vel' d'Hiv roundup of Parisian Jews in 1942 because I am not so foolish to think that under times such as those pragmatism may not come before ethics for many. Though it is sad and hard to truly understand but I guess unless you are in those circumstances you cannot definitively say how you would behave. But I can only hope that we learn from the past and also why we must never forget it. However, what I remain totally shocked at is that the French did not admit their part until 1995. That is what is unbelievable and terribly disappointing. In fact, I found out from my sister (who read the book) that the author who grew up in France was never taught at school about the French complicity in rounding up Jews for the Nazis. When Tatiana de Rosnay found out about it she wrote this book as her tribute to all the french children that were murdered as a result of that roundup. Heartbreaking but wonderful that she wanted to do that. I was sad about what happened to Sarah. She obviously could not come to terms with the horror she experienced and the death of her whole family. I was sad all over again about the role France played in the Holocaust. Seeing what men were capable of doing to their fellow man. But I find hope in the fact that there were people who helped during that dark time and ultimately there was a message of hope and potential that lived on in her son (though that part was a bit weak IMO). I shudder at man's inhumanity to man and can only hope if ever faced with such circumstances I would be with those people that did the right and brave thing even with great risk to themselves. Thanks MoZo for being the impetus I needed to finally watch this movie. |
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glad you finally saw it. it was very well done....and educational.
there has been a lot of film out of europe during the last years re complicity with the nazi. see this one: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0920458/ i saw it in toronto before release. the director was present. he made the film because the danes pretend they were all against the nazi....but they weren't. the story is based on actual history. he found a reference while doing other research to a payment made to a woman and became curious. he followed that one piece of paper to find out more and it led to the movie. citron was the son of an auto manufacturer and rather than let the nazis use it for their own, he burned it to the ground. i will admit that i have not yet seen Schindler's List....... |
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Thanks for another recommendation. I will put it on my TIVO list.
I highly recommend Schindler's List. I was only planning on seeing that movie once and saw it with my parents and my sister in 1993. When my dh and I became a couple he had never seen it so I ended up seeing it again. Not a movie I really wanted to see twice but it is an excellent movie. Worth seeing for sure. My favorite Holocaust movie is Sophie's Choice. I'm not sure if it is because of Meryl Streep (love her!) or the fact that is was so deeply moving and profound. I really love this movie and have seen it a few times which is unlike me. |
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'Schindler's List' is probably the best and most realistic Holocaust film ever made (according to many survivors, not just me). 'Sophie's Choice' was good, but very very disturbing because it put many people in the same circumstance as Sophie (especially as a parent). It really tugged at the deepest of human emotions. It delved not just into antisemitism, but how the Nazi's affected other populations as well (Sophie was Polish Catholic). Cudos to Steven Spielberg for continuing awareness of antisemitism and educating the world about injustice. I highly recommend the 'USC Shoah Foundation Institute' he started after making Schindler's List. Nothing is as compelling as a survivor's testimony. |
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I agree TL, Sophie's Choice is a heart-wrenching movie and deeply upsetting. I think it is a masterpiece though, as is Schindler's List. Both very important movies in their own right.
Thanks for the info about the 'USC Shoah Foundation Institute'. I will check it out. |
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I'm ethnically Jewish on my mothers side. We never celebrated any Jewish holidays or anything because my mother is a spiritual mother earth loving hippie type of woman. We always had Christmas. But my mother was raised Jewish. She's from New York and her parents were from Belarus. Anyway I was really surprised at my mother in laws feelings towards Jewish people when I met her. " all jews are republicans" etc... and my MIL is from England. And she only knows two jewish people ( me and my mother). BTW my mother and my MIL have actually become pretty good friends.
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I think that was when it really hit home for me in a way it never had before. When I met my future MIL (who is a strict and religious catholic) and found out some of her views on Jews. It wasn't good. Well, at least not good enough for her Catholic school/choir boy darling son. And then, one Easter we were at a friend's house and their parents and my (future) MIL were also invited. Well, it was a weird conversation while my dh and his friend were in the kitchen cooking and we were at the dining room table. It was just me, my MIL and our friend's father. They started talking about how much they respect the Jews and how much they value education etc. We have since worked things out and as with most things this kind of reaction is from ignorance and just not being educated about different races/religions etc. Once people really get to know each other I find that a lot of misconceptions are put to rest and we realize that we are really not all that different. I am glad it all worked out for your family innerkitten. It is great that everyone was open to getting to know the other without letting their "differences" get in the way. Thank you for sharing your story. It's going to be only in this way that the world can ever find peace and harmony. There is too much fear of the "unknown" and thinking the differences are so huge when truly they aren't (in most cases that is). Tolerance would go a long way in everyone getting along but knowledge is also important and trying to understand where the other person is coming from can only help. |
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glad they're getting along well, kitten!
odd, though, that she thought all jews are/were republicans. the civil rights movement here was strongly support by the jewish community and had been for years. most i've known were democrats...some conservative democrats but democrats. |
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Oh, goodness--anti-semitism is certainly alive and well where I live. I've experienced anti-semitism in all of the secular jobs I've held, from colleagues and students alike. In fact, I can no longer count the anti-semitic things I've heard my students say.
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wow, I am really sorry to hear this. I am happy to say that I have never seen anti-semitism. |
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I have to say that if you are not tuned to it you may not notice it. It can be subtle and insidious. I was pretty sheltered regarding this until I became more aware. In the news we are made more aware of racism of other kinds whereas anti semitism is rarely brought up. But it still exists very strongly in many areas and countries. |
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I agree with you, Missy. It's also difficult to spot such things when you aren't a member of the targeted group. |
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I completely agree. When you are one of the people prejudiced against you know it whereas someone not directly affected may be unaware. Though I try to be sensitive to all parties you cannot help but be most acutely aware when it is you who are targeted. However subtle it may be. |
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hi,
This conversation hits the mark for me today. The back story: I dabble a bit in the stock market. Its somethig I enjoy. There is a section on the internet called yahoo finance where each stock has a forum to discuss the pros & cons of that stock. As I checked out some of these forums I found all sorts of derogatory comments about Jews and Blacks. I quickly formed an opinion I was dealing with a bunch of crazies, and I do mean crazies. I stayed close to one forum as it seemed pretty normal and I got good information. As time went on , lo and behold, more anti-semitic remarks and racist comments on blacks. I posted about it and the other posters told me to report it. Which I did! Again, and Again & Again. You get the point. The Admin does nothing about it. So I decided to get tougher. I reported it to the Jewish Anti Defamation League and looked for somewhere I could report to the NAACP. Then I told Admin what I had done, and the comments began to disappear. But guess what, there is no reporting mechanism for black racism. So today I go on and want to see the New Facebook page and offer my comments and found many comments on the bad Jews who were manipulating Wall Street and how the Jew Mark Zucherberg was cheating everyone. So i did my thing and complained to Admin and for the second time recently, I was blocked from making my complaint. It does no real good anyway, but I don't know what else to do. Is this Free Speech?. Is this a free speech issue? I'm pretty old and have never come across this before. This internet stuff shows a lot of our failures and that there is a stupid population out there. Really bad. My parents came from Holland and had very few prejudices. My Uncle was also killed in a concentration camp, and when I was 16 they showed pictues of the concentration camps and that memory has stayed with me thru my whole life. I am not jewish, but I am very worried about what I have read. Such awfulness. Annette |
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Wow, Annette, how awful. I am shocked but sadly not too surprised. There are so many ignorant and hateful people in the world that want to blame their problems on someone else/some other group and Jews and Blacks make great scapegoats. Thank you for reporting those posts to the anti defamation league and the NAACP because that was at least something positive you could do and thank you for sharing your experience here with us. I strongly believe if people are made more aware of all the racism/hate/prejudices that still exist things will eventually change. Too many people deny there is any problem sadly and that is a big part of the problem. Knowledge is power.
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unfortunately, free speech goes both ways......people are free to spew hate because it is protected speech. sometime we have to take the bad with the good.
i applaud Annette for speaking up and doing the right thing. more need to and should. because on the internet the idea that anything and everything can be said is crazy. all websites and forums are privately owned. they are public use because the owner has made it public. the owner also has the right to limit the type of speech and topic just as we see done here at pricescope. the only conclusion one can make when reading hate speech is that either the owner of the site agrees or the owner of the site is more interested in not ruffling feathers meaning more interested in making $. scapegoating is not new. it will never go away. but i absolutely believe that when racism rears its ugly head, we need to speak up. whether it be jews, blacks, hispanics, gays, or whoever. |
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Thank you for posting these articles. When I was 17 I went to Poland and visited several of the concentration camps. I remember their were houses right across the road with these pretty white laces curtains in the windows. They were at every single concentration camp we visited. I asked our tour guide about them as to me it seemed awkward they would build houses there. He informed me that they were built well before the Holocaust- they were family homes. For some reason that always stuck with me. That people lived right there with their pretty lace curtains not far from the camps turning a blind eye.
Our tour also had sevearl European teenagers and I will just say in the politeness term possible that they cared little for learning about the Holocaust and what happened. They felt the need to make fun of the situation and telling everyone they were sick of hearing about all of it. It was disgusting behavior. So I guess I'm truly not surprized about some of the things brought up in the article. I will say that I'm sad and ashamed that this generation hasnt' learned more about the mistakes made previously, but then again before the Holocast with progroms (sp?) and the Spanish Inquisition. My heart really goes out to the families of the victims. My children are so very young and now when I hear about things like this it just causes me to tear up. |
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Sarahbear--Did you happen to go on a Shorashim trip to Poland? I went to Poland and Israel with Shorashim back in 1996, and our experience in Poland was very similar. (We spent one week in Poland and seven weeks in Israel.)
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Hi Haven, Sorry I'm just seeing this now. No it was not with Shorashim. It was a private tour through that was organized by my school at the time. It was free for those who had never been to Poland, which is why I signed up. I'm very glad I did as that trip really changed my life and will always stick with me. |